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Author Topic: Matting
John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-06-2000 11:49 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think Chris has described it pretty well, especially for new films. The only thing I might add is: If you were trying make a rule for all (old and new) 1.85 films, the rule is - there is no rule. It depends on both what is desired while filming and what is desired while viewing.

Here is a scenario that results in a 1.85 matted release print:

If a primary goal is to save negative costs, studios can use a camera that only pulls down two perforations at a time. It saves negative costs, but results in somewhat less quality. This was originally part of the "Techniscope" process. (I don't know exactly what Super 35 is, but I'm guessing it's similar.) This gives a image area of 0.868" x 0.373" (I have my ASC book right here.) An optical printer blows up the image slightly to fill the height of a flat (0.838" x 0.446") frame. The director realizes that what he sees on the far left/right will be pushed out of the frame after blowing up, so he makes sure no action takes place there. Since this does not fill up the height of the frame as used in a projector (4 perf, 0.868" x 0.631"), a matte is placed around the unphotographed area.

Here's a different scenario that results in a 1.85 non-matted release print:

A director knows ahead of time that his film will be shown on TV. He wants to be sure it looks the way he intended when shown at the theaters (1.85) and on TV (1.33.) He does not want to use a 2 perf camera, because someone later will have to re-format the 1.85 ratio to fit a TV screen, and it might not be him. In the viewfinder of the camera, there are lines that denote the frame edges in both ratios. He composes the frame so both ratios look good. This is not a minor decision; backdrops must be made bigger, more people are needed to fill crowd scenes, etc. The flat release print is printed with no matte. The theaters show only the 1.85 area, later, TV shows the entire area.

So, whether a matte appears on a print may depend on questions like:

Two perf or four perf? This usually is a money issue, but if I have to carry a camera and film 40 miles and back, I might like the negative savings two perf offers.

Do I want to pay more now and compose the film for theaters and TV, or save the money and do it later?

Am I a 'director control freak' and don't want anyone changing my 'vision'? Kubrick was like this.

Let's say I'm cheap, but can get some four perf cameras and lenses so cheap that I don't care about negative costs. Also, when Mirramax buys my movie, I'll let them pay for the TV formatting. So, I'll shoot with booms and lights visible, because I know the theaters will limit the frame area.

Maybe, I had no money when I started shooting this picture, but got some towards the end.

Sorry to blab on.. I probably said more than you wanted to know...

I would suggest getting a copy of the ASC manual. It's not too expensive, and while it is meant for shooting film, knowing that helps you understand how they should be projected.
http://www.cinematographer.com/store/index.html

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-06-2000 03:59 PM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An example of a film that was shot for 1:66 and presented in 1:85 is the original ROBOCOP. Foriegn director Paul Verhoven shot it in 1:66 and intended it that way, not realizing that in the US we show them as 1:85. Even in the DVD release it is in 1:85, however you can get the original version on DVD presented in 1:66 with all the missing footage that was pulled out for US release.

Speaking of pulled footage, why are we americans, who live in the land of the free and home of the brave, so afraid and terrified of movie footage that we have to have it removed to protect our fragile little minds? What are we, wussies?

------------------
"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"

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Martin Frandsen
Master Film Handler

Posts: 270
From: Denmark, Europe
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2000 04:17 PM      Profile for Martin Frandsen   Email Martin Frandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave, in europe we get to see it all! hehehe

Life IS beautiful!

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-06-2000 04:22 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think Americans are wussies, but American producers (who are afraid to offend anyone and lose a few bucks) are.

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David Koegel
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: Alexandria, VA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2000 04:33 PM      Profile for David Koegel   Email David Koegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
America was originally populated by Puritans, and their point of view has been carried all the way to the present. They certainly didn't want anyone, anywhere to be enjoying themselves in anyway even if no one was is harmed in the process. Hence, the nudity that is so common in foreign films just isn't expected here, and when it does appear, it's normally given a more restrictive rating. No wonder Americans are so uptight.....

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-06-2000 09:57 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It seems to me that the motion picture camera companies and/or rental houses would prepare viewfinders with a standardized ground glass. Thus, while the camera operator may be able to see more than the 1.85 area of the original image, that 1.85 area WILL be in the same place in every viewfinder. So the only people who can mess up that standardized framing on the release prints would be the people at the lab. But... do they? If the projectionist has figured out the framing on one 1.85 film, is it that hard to get it right on the others (especially when you're running the same policy trailers month after month on a variety of films and you know how THEY look)?

Incidentally, there are very few feature films which aren't filmed with 4-perf pull down. It's the industry standard and anything else requires the lab to do too much work (and that costs money).

Super 35 allows the filmmaker to use the area on the film which is normally reserved for the optical sound. In recent years, Super 35 has been used for many features which are intended for 2.35 theatrical release and, yes, the lab DOES have to convert the image to amamorphic (and restore that room for the optical soundtrack). Some filmmakers (James Cameron, for one) prefer Super 35 for a variety of reasons, including video transfer consideration, greater depth of field than you get with anamorphic lenses, less offensive lens flares, etc.

When Cameron made THE ABYSS, he requested that the effects shots be composed for 1.66, although the theatrical prints would be 2.35. Of course, he was considering video releases when he called for those effects shots. ILM's effects people have used VistaVision cameras for many years and that's among the reasons why effects aren't "full frame" in flat films.

I've heard a bunch of complaints about re-issues on films which weren't shot for 1.85 or 2.35. Although I didn't see the latest re-issue of THE WIZARD OF OZ (less than 2 years ago), I was told it was matted on all 4 sides of the image so that it would play in the proper 1.33 aspect ratio even in theatres which could only show today's standard 1.85 flat material. I can't imagine why that approach wasn't taken with previous re-issues of those older films. Personally, I saw a so-called "restoration" of THE TEN COMMANDMENTS about 10 years ago in 70mm. The only trouble was that the original version was VistaVision and this "restoration" was cropped to 2.35. As a friend of mine commented, there were only 8 commandments in the print I saw! Boneheads!

And, finally, God bless America! The dumbest movies we make here carry the excuse that "it'll be a big hit overseas." Let's all share the blame, please.

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-06-2000 11:26 PM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I am assuming you are referring to the electric dowser (more commonly referred to as a changeover

Maybe it's a projector with some model of fire shutter out of adjustment?

ALL films are flat when you unroll them all the way.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-07-2000 10:34 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Standard ANSI/SMPTE 195 "Motion-Picture Prints --- Projectable Image Area" specifies the image area on the print that should be projected, and discusses the use of "hard-matte" printing:

"To help ensure correct vertical centering (framing) of the projected image, hard-matte printing may be used in producing the duplicate negative used for release printing of theatrical prints. A hard matte with an image height of at least 0.505 in (12.83 mm) may be used with all style A aspect ratios (1.66:1 or greater). Note that prints intended for a style C aspect ratio (1.37:1) will normally have an image height of at least 0.630 in (16.00 mm)as specified in ANSI-SMPTE 59. In all cases, the framelines on the print shall essentially be opaque".

"Use of camera aperture dimensions other than those stated in ANSI/SMPTE 59 is discouraged. Film users are reminded that many features composed for wide-screen aspect ratio will be shown later on television. Use of a hard matte in the camera will require substantial cropping of the film horizontally when the film is transferred to television, and severely limits the use of a print made from the negative".

"Good practice dictates using the 1.37:1 style A camera aperture of ANSI/SMPTE 59, while composing for the desired theatrical projection aspect ratio. Care should be taken to exclude extraneous items or action from the photographed image area which may show in the television scanned area".

ANSI/SMPTE 59 "Camera Aperture Images and Usage" specifies the "Style A" aperture size as 0.864 X 0.63 inches (21.95 X 16.0 mm). The "Style B" (scope) camera aperture is 0.864 X 0.732 inches (21.95 X 18.59 mm). The "Style C" ("Super 35") camera aperture is 0.981 X 0.735 inches (24.92 X 18.67 mm). Note that the camera aperture is ALWAYS larger than the final projected image area, and the image is composed on the camera viewfinder groundglass to correspond to the projectable image area specified in ANSI/SMPTE 195.

Copies of SMPTE Standards and Recommended Practices are available from the SMPTE:
http://www.smpte.org/stds/index.html

A good projectionist is always careful to properly frame the image, because the image on the print is always larger than the projectable image area that the cinematographer and director composed the image for. And despite the warning in ANSI/SMPTE 195, there is always a chance of a wayward mike boom, lighting flag, or bikini-clad "nude" scene being on the print, that was never intended to be seen.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Christopher Seo
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 530
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-08-2000 12:28 AM      Profile for Christopher Seo   Email Christopher Seo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is fascinating. Before, I thought that the only two ways of presenting a non-1.33 image on the television screen were letterbox (lossless) and pan-'n'-scan (lossy). So how common is this third method that actually includes MORE information that was contained in the theatrical release? And moreover, is anyone keeping track of which videotape/laserdisc/DVD releases use this third method? A quick check shows the IMDB doesn't seem to be aware of it, for example.

Regarding Super 35... so it's more or less the old 1.33 silent aperture? My understanding is that it is then simply cropped to a 2.35 aperture. But after cropping its dimensions would be reduced from 0.981" x 0.735" (per John Pytlak's figures) to 0.981" x 0.417", or about 0.409 square inches. This is only the tiniest bit more than the 0.403 square inches of 1.85 (0.864" by 0.467" or so). Thus, how is it that 2.35 anamorphic prints, no matter whether filmed in anamorphic or Super 35, seem to look so much better than 1.85 spherical prints?

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-08-2000 06:02 AM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are filmmakers who don't like Super 35 because it looks more "contrasty" than anamorphic 2.35 which uses more space on the original negative. Somehow, they think Cameron's prints look better than anyone else's Super 35 work which is released in 2.35 theatrically. The issue of AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER which discusses TITANIC (so the issue is about 2 years old) contains a good interview of Cameron in which he explains how he works with the lab to ensure that his Super 35 material looks so good.

Professional motion picture camera operators I've spoken with tell me it's impossible to compose a picture correctly for 2 aspect ratios at once. The "pan and scan" version of THE BLUES BROTHERS, for example, shows more than the letterbox version. When a camera operator I know watched the pan and scan version, it just drove him nuts because there was too much headroom and, overall, it didn't look right to him. He also admits than when he does television work composing for 1.33 and 16 by 9 at the same time, it only looks best in one of those ratios.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-08-2000 08:13 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christopher:

The normal "Super-35" camera aperture is 0.980 X 0.735 inches. The area "extracted" (i.e., printed) when a picture is released in the 2.39:1 "scope" format is 0.945 X 0.394 inches. This is the area outlined in the camera's viewfinder, which guides the composition of the shot. Examples of pictures shot this way are "Titanic", "Godzilla" and "Independence Day". Jim Cameron and Russell Carpenter's work on "Titanic" was an fine example of the excellent quality that can be obtained using "Super-35".

A few 1.85:1 pictures have been shot using the "Super-35" format. In this case, the same 0.980 X 0.735 inch camera aperture is used, but the negative image area that ends up on the screen is 0.945 X 0.511 inches. Despite having the advantage of a larger image area on the negative, "Super-35" is not often used for 1.85:1, as it requires the duplicate negative to be made on a slow optical printer, rather than a faster continuous contact printer. Pictures shot in "Super-35" 1.85:1 include "The Godfather Part III", "Bonfire of the Vanities", "The Fisher King", "Goodfellas", "Malcolm X", and "The Two Jakes".

Some have suggested a "Super-35" release print format to take advantage of the increased image area. These include Dean Goodhill's "MaxiVision" proposal, and Vittorio Storaro's "Univision System". But such a change would require eliminating the analog soundtrack (without analog backup, the digital sound would need to be 100% reliable) and changing the optical centerline of the image and the placement of the DTS timecode. Some projectors would require fairly extensive modification to change the centerline without vignetting.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Martin Frandsen
Master Film Handler

Posts: 270
From: Denmark, Europe
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-08-2000 02:30 PM      Profile for Martin Frandsen   Email Martin Frandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On American widescreen museum's web page they tell the horribel story how film is transferd to video. Very rarely is a films correct aspect-ratio transferd to video. Just because it say's 'scope' on the back of a dvd dosent mean it's in scope (2:35)

A very bad example of sloppy film to video is the laserdisc release of 'Ben-hur'


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Erich Loepke
Film Handler

Posts: 43
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-08-2000 03:23 PM      Profile for Erich Loepke   Email Erich Loepke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's one I saw on the back of one of my brother's DVD boxes:

Anamorphic 1.85

I thought 1.85 was called "flat", and was projected without anamorphic lenses. Oh well, the mass market consumer won't know the difference, and besides, doesn't "anamorphic" sound high-tech?

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 02-08-2000 11:33 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The term "anamorphic" when used to describe a DVD refers to those which are 16 by 9 enhanced. There needs to be some standardization of the terms used in packaging DVDs. Indeed, a 1.85 image CAN be converted to "anamorphic" on a DVD. Even the new, Disney TARZAN DVD is 16 by 9 enhanced and some would also call that "anamorphic" although the aspect ratio is 1.66!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-09-2000 12:15 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some Bad news for the purists
1.33:1 films do not scan with a full apperture to T.V.
The safe title area which most telecines are set for is actually an area in the centre of the frame about the verticle heigth of teh 1.66:1 frame but with the width to hiegth ratio of 1.33
SO not only the top and bottom is cropped but so are the sides
This is less of a problem now but just watch many of the older titles and look at how the sides of the credits are cropped
In fact most news 16mm cameras ground glass wa marked very clearly for projection and then the smaller safe tv frame

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