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Mark, some Kinoton parts are expensive and some are not, but I believe they are of higher quality than some others', and old machines are supported (we have lots of parts stock for FP-5's and 6's). The 7kW bulb adapter for the Ultra 80 was $73.00 list in '98. The intermittent motor/encoder ass'y for the current EC is $4180.00 list.

Not to be a jerk, but all electromechanical things get old, become hard (and uneconomical) to repair. Projectors are just another example.

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I don't question the electronic things age but to put things in general statements like 5-7 years of obsolescence is a bit silly, depending on the piece. Televisions don't seem to die at that rate (or at least mine haven't). And please don't use a "List" price as a justification of a pricey item. Isn't the JJ intermittent "list" price knocking up around that area ($4180) or am I thinking of during the hyperinflation ORC-post-CDS days.

Would I spec an electronic intermittent today over a mechanical just for that one feature? No. It is an unecessary expense (typically a $3000+ option). A properly maintained mechanical will last a very long time. If I am trying to perform a particular purpose (silent speed, shuttle speed...etc) sure it is currently the best tool for the job.

On the cost of maintaining Kinoton machines, about the only expense we seem to see is for replacing the delrin skates or for the Norelco DP-70, the tension bands. For all the whining about DP-70 parts, how often do you really need them once you have the machine up and running? In the last 20 or so years of running and servicing them, I can't recall having to spend any real volumes of money, and in theatres that have Century and/or Simplex machines the DP-70s are cheapest on the cost/year of any of them.

Compare that to say the early Christie P-35 where the ones put in 15 years ago have almost all been replaced (out here at least), the entire projector. Mechanical projectors can face the same thing.

I still maintain that comparing an electronic lighting company and that industry to the film projection industry is not a fair comparision though it is a closer comparison to the up and coming Digital Cinema industry.

Gord, as far as SMART processors go, lets face it, they are disposable items, one is only fooling themselves if they think any other way, including if they think they compare favorably (sonically) to brands such as Dolby. When one designes something to meet a price point, you do so at the expense of other things, longevity, servicability and the like are examples.

Our fist Kinoton FP-38ES machines (the wowie-sowie one) that are 35/16mm, go forward and reverse (both projection and shuttle) will be going in this summer. Again, we will see if there are any long term negative affects.

I am remain optomistic.

Steve

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I dont want computers to control everything.

I am sick and tired of seeing theaters having to replace big money items because of single IC's not being available for their repairs.

I used to repair TV's for Sears. Sanyo built a nice series of sets that used a Sanyo-designed IC chip in the power supply that controlled the regulator. This was around 1981. In 1984, we were told that Sears no-longer stocked this particular IC, and that any sets with this chip were now unrepairable when a regulator problem was indicated. I saw many of these sets get tossed because of this chip. I thought it sucked then, and still do. Sanyo stopped building the IC, and the customers suffered. Sears never told customers why their sets were not being fixed, just that the "parts were no longer available."

Note: When Sears still stocked this IC, it only cost $7.99, and that was the marked-up price!

The above mentioned Smart system with the IC that is also used in some Delco radio systems hit me directly. My car system had to be replaced because of this IC failure, and no junkyard had anything that I could use.

Why is it that the electronics world no longer has parts that are "standard"???

Am I just living in the past, or am I just being stupid wanting to buy something that will last and function well for many many years without worrying that individual parts, when they die, have become obsolete?

Just my 2 cents worth.

"Am I just living in the past, or am I just being stupid wanting to buy something that will last and function well for many many years without worrying that individual parts, when they die, have become obsolete?"

Good point, and I agree with you. But, really, it's socity that encourages this "throw it away" type of life. IC manufacturers are no different that most other industries- there is a big push to always make it smaller, faster, lighter, etc. IC manufacturers can't be expected to continue to make, stock, and support everything they have ever made, especially when functions overlap.

When, say, "Mr. Century" designed a projector in 1925, technology moved slower, and that design could be expected to last many years. Today, things move much faster and designs are only expected to last a short time- so why do a _really_ good job of engineering? Employees no longer feel loyal to their company (and visa-versa) so they quit and knowledge of a product is not passed along. I saw a fairly good selling product die because the guy who wrote the firmware code quit, and no one could pick it up. OTOH, we have customers actually throw away a perfectly good portable PC we made because it ran on DOS, and they wanted Windows. IC manufacturers are only giving what the large percentage of customers want.

It gets even worse in the motion picture equipment industry, because it's cheap by nature and most purchases are multiplyed by 15(-plex) or 20 (-plex.) A few dollars saved on each screen can add up to a lot. Owners don't want to pay for "good" -they only want to pay for "good enough." (Thin sheet metal on platter decks that wave around like a warped LP record really bug me, as do those cheap split gimble mount platter rollers.) A Cinemecannica V5 is not a bad machine, but it's a toy compaired to a V8. A Kineton PK60D is about the best thing made today (certainty in the top 3) but do you think it will last as long as a AA-II?

People want cheap, they want it right away with whiz-bang features, and don't really care about servicing. And if any manufacturer doesn't go along with that, they will go in the same direction as Ashcraft and Motiograph.

And here is your answer (from experience)...

If you would re-read my little story from above, you will see how it hit me.

But more specifically, an engineer has all the options in the world at his/her disposal at the onset of design but ultimately constraints will come in...that is price and size plus time till completion. One could design a particular circuit using SSI (Small Scale Integration) usng the various TTL and CMOS families of chips and be pretty safe with chip availability since there are many sources for them (I still use them myself). The problem is what if it is a complex circuit or even a semi-complex circuit and it takes say 6 14-pin packages to do the same function as say 1 8pin purpose built package? That saves a bunch of PCB space, which saves cost (in both design and production). Multiply this same senerio for all the separate functions of a device and you start to get into real savings of size and price.
Now let's say you take away even these families...you COULD still go back to discrete transistors and make the equivalent circuit but think about the size and cost! It would get quite silly.

So when you find a purpose built IC that does a particular function, you run the risk that it may not be around for extremely long. Like everything else, it is a matter of economics as to take the chance vs. potential bad customer will...in the case of a TV set, what are the percentage of the units that failed after the part was discontinued, how long did it take to fail after the warranty, just how upset did the whole consumer base (not just the customers that got stuck) get over this problem? If it comes out to an insignificant number, then it was a reasonable choice. I'm sure if this was God's gift to TVs, someone would have come up with a suitable kludge to get it going again using a new chip design (that would shortly become obsolete itself).

Steve

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This throw-away mentality is not going to stop.

The Sanyo stuff made it an average of 2 years after the warranty. I often wondered if Sears planned it this way. I wonder if they owned the IC patents?

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