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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Star Wars: Episode 2... Shooting soon, but not on film. (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Star Wars: Episode 2... Shooting soon, but not on film.
Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-15-2000 01:39 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thats interesting John. While the negative resolution is 4096 X 3426 I doubt that the average release print is much better than what they are proposing to do digitally.
Mark

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Dwayne Caldwell
Master Film Handler

Posts: 323
From: Rockwall, TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-15-2000 02:34 PM      Profile for Dwayne Caldwell   Email Dwayne Caldwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's why I said it might be a moot point in my first post for this thread, Mark. It may very well cost as much to rent out digital equipment as it does to rent film equipment. But there's nothing union about most amateur projects. I think you're misunderstanding me here. I didn't say digital should take the place of film. I said it'd make a wonderful option for filmmakers starting out outside of studios in order to get in if it is indeed cheaper to rent digital equipment.

No one's going to take a filmmaker that shoots his first project in video seriously. But if there's a way to make a first time project look as close to professional as film and is as cheap as shooting in video, I don't see that being anything to look down on. A majority of an amateur independent's project cost is going to be the film stock. Now when you talk about bigger projects that necessitate a crew, a cast with names, and major lighting and location rentals, it's no longer an independent project and you're better off using film instead of digital anyway.

But that's a lot to ask of a first time director with little experience. At least one of my friends is making a film with the Canon DV camcorder, and he went to film school at UNT in Denton, Texas. And I'm sure he'd much rather shoot his film on film, but he doesn't have the budget for it. It's filmmakers like him that I'm saying this digital technology would be good for. For major studio projects, it's a dumb idea. And as for my friend's cast and crew, all his crew and actors are volunteering for exposure and experience while he just wants at least one feature length project in his portfolio. I didn't read his script or have anything to do with the project because I've moved to Colorado, but I've seen his student projects, and he's very good at directing action shorts. Nice clean edits, very good tempo. I'd really like to see him make it.

If he can get his feature to look good enough to get him a contract with a major studio, then it's worth shooting in digital. But, as a said before, the convenience of shooting in digital video may open the flood gates to a variety of filmmaker wannabes putting out a variety of crap. As for the Darwinian theory of good filmmakers surviving the rigors of filming, don't count on it. Take a good look at most of the independent crap OR some of the major studio releases that come out. Better yet, the filmmakers (you know, the ones that went to the $35,000 a year schools like UCLA and NYU?) that made those Coke commerial snipes. For filmmakers like that, it's not what they know so much as who they know.
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The man with the magic hands.


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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 05-15-2000 02:34 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark:

Most people blame release print unsteadiness and sharpness loss on high speed release printing. It seems to make sense that printing at over 1000 feet per minute is somehow inherently worse quality than 180 feet per minute. I disagree.

An excellent presentation by Irwin Young of DuArt Labs at the SMPTE Technical Conference a few years ago blames most of the unsteadiness and sharpness loss in release prints on not using a step printer for the critical Master Positive to Duplicate Negative printing step.

When using a continuous contact printer, the processed original and the raw stock are wrapped around a 64-tooth (12-inch circumference) printing sprocket. Ideally, the "pitch" (distance between each perforation) of the original film should be 0.3 percent shorter than that of the raw stock, to avoid "slippage" of the films as they go around the sprocket. If this relationship is not maintained, unsteadiness and sharpness loss can occur. In making a direct print, a "short pitch" BH-1866 negative is printed to a "long pitch" KS-1870 print stock, so printer slippage is negligible.

When going through a release printing system, the short pitch negative can be continuous contact printed to a long pitch master positive. But that long pitch master positive should be STEP-PRINTED onto a short-pitch duplicate negative, using full-fitting registration pins. Then the short pitch duplicate negative can be release printed onto long pitch print film using a continuous contact printer.

Unfortunately, today's most common practice prints the short pitch camera negative to a short pitch master positive to a short pitch duplicate negative and finally to a long pitch release print, all using continuous contact printers. Those steps of printing short-pitch to short-pitch on a continuous contact printer are where the unsteadiness and sharpness loss can creep in.

An excellent discussion of this is in book "Motion Picture Film Processing" by Dominic Case (Focal Press Media Manuals, TR88.2.C37, ISBN 0-240-51243-X), in the section on "Continuous-contact Printers" (page 100-101).

Unfortunately, time and cost constraints often prevent labs from using a pin-registered step printer to maintain the proper film-pitch relationship. But even assuming a mediocre 50 line pairs per millimeter system resolution, a release print still would have an equivalent 2096 X 1752 resolution for the anamorphic format. Look at a release print of "The Thin Red Line" and you'll see excellent sharpness.

As I noted, the dynamic range and "bit depth" of film is also significantly better than existing digital cameras. Look at that "metachlorian blood sampling" scene in TPM again, and you'll see what I mean.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-15-2000 03:47 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

That scene shot with the digital Sony camera in Episode I was plainly lacking in resolution from the rest of the movie. Now don't misinterpret that as my claiming I thought the prints looked good, because they did not. That is the one film that really stands out in my mind as poor quality...and with the power and cash of Lucas behind it, it should NOT have been like that.

It will be interesting to see how many exhibitors bite to the ludicrous demands for Episode 2.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 05-15-2000 04:39 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,
I am aware that high speed printers are capable of great results. And that there is a proper pitch from film to film that has to be followed. I think the reel problem with high speed stuff is that the equipment does not get the proper maintanance it requires. This info is something I was told by a manufacturers(BHP)field tech. Most labs do not even have the proper jigs to do the alignment let alone do it at all. Heck it takes down time to maintain equipment, and that costs money. Also its commn knowledge that one large east coast lab gets the hand me downs from its big daddy on the west coast. I've been witness to alot of dailies prints comming from that lab(name withheld as last time I mentioned it I was barraged with threats from several prominent DP's) and they are inconsistant at best.
Mark

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Phil Connolly
Film Handler

Posts: 80
From: Derby, England
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-16-2000 07:55 AM      Profile for Phil Connolly   Author's Homepage   Email Phil Connolly   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is my first post, but I've been Lurking for a while.

I'm just curious why Mr Lucas is so keen on digital. It can't be the cost, he could afford to shoot on imax. Its seems he's trying be inovative just for the sake of it. In the interviews he gave when episode 1 came out, he seemed more interested in the number of cgi shots than the charaters, actors, plot etc.

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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

Posts: 481
From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 05-16-2000 03:41 PM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You gotta V.V. camera, Mark? WOW!!! Now that's something. Is it one of those elephant ear jobs that Hitchcock used?

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-16-2000 06:18 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad wrote: >>It will be interesting to see how many exhibitors bite to the ludicrous demands for Episode 2.<<

Really, how many EXHIBITORS made some money from episode 1? With its unrealistic stipulations of having to keep it on the largest screen, higher rentals for longer periods etc...Most cinemas here didn't even make it to the minimum number of weeks and were not required to 'cos it was as dead as dead after week three, much less week nine or ten!

You'd think he would have shot himself in the foot with that balls-up, but lets face facts... It (supposedly) is Star Wars and the hype machine will gear up all over again. If you don't take it, then it'll be a case of..."Well, then I'm afraid you can't have "X","Y" or "Z" either."

They'll all have short memories.

I just hope Julia Roberts is making another romantic comedy so they can bring it out in week two of episode 2 just like they did with Notting Hill against episode 1 and make a killing. I'd be booking that one now.

As Joe Pesci said... "They fuck you at the drive though"

I think there's something in that for all of us.



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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 05-16-2000 06:37 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jeff,
No, Mine's a converted Fox 2 color camera. The exact same type of camera used to film White Christmas. Mine has a built in Crystal motor though and is now reflexed(finally!). Its alot smaller then the Mitchell Elephant ear camera but still tips the scales at 55 lbs loaded and ready to shoot. Check out the pictures of my VV projector on the photo pages here.
Mark

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Scott Magie
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: St. Albans, VT USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 05-17-2000 02:04 AM      Profile for Scott Magie   Email Scott Magie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's my 2 cents:
I agree with Dwayne. Having shot both digital (Panasonic DVC-Pro) and 16mm in film school, I found digital to be an excellent "beginner's medium" (Since Lucas hasn't really directed much, does he qualify? ). Seriously though, since the cost of film (mostly processing, telecine, etc.) is so high, shooting it as a student or independent filmmaker tends to do two things: (1) limit the amount of money that can be spent on other aspects of production and (2) stifle creativity and experimentation by limiting the shooting ratio.
Example: Shot a five minute short film for 6,000 dollars. Not extremely happy with the result because I hadn't allowed myself to "play" during the production phase. I just shot the necessary shots and coverage. With the dollars clicking away every time the shutter spins, it's hard to relax and shoot the way that larger productions do... with a larger ratio. Actors are then pressured into doing things in one or two takes. Only on a few more complex scenes did I allow for more than 3 or 4 takes per set-up, let alone per shot!
On the other hand, I shot a digital short "for fun" (not a school project). It was also 5 minutes long and cost approximately 250 bucks (which was mostly DV-tapes and craft-service junk food). This "film" was far more successful in my opinion. Not only was the final product better, but the learning experience was much more far-reaching. We were able to play and experiment, take after take after take. A flock of geese flew overhead, so I threw the camera on my shoulder and taped them for a bit. It was supposed to be a joke for my editor, but he ended up including it in his final cut as a transitional shot! We were also able to shoot a nighttime car-chase scene without using moving cars. The "tricks" we used to do this would've been far too complex to try if we had been burning film in our cameras. This film would've cost upwards of 15 to 20 grand I'm sure. We were able to have a large shooting ratio, which gave our editor plenty of options (probably too many in some instances) and in the end, this produced a better story.
Now, as a beginning filmmaker, I'm much more likely to be noticed for an original story (Clerks) than an okay film. If Clerks had been shot on digital (I mean, come on... it would've looked better!) Kevin Smith would've still made it to Hollywood. In the end, if you don't know the right people (which most of us don't), then your only chance is an incredible story with good acting... And from where I'm standin', both of these are more reasonably attained through digital means if budget is a barrier.

Plus, I don't want to "make it" in Hollywood by knowing someone. I'm sure if I really shmoozed at enough festivals, I could someday be able to land in the director's chair for some movie like "Kazaam!", but I'd rather make a GREAT film/video, even if only my friends end up seeing it.

------------------
Scott A. Magie

scoooot@hotmail.com
"Anybody wanna peanut?"

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Scott Norwood
Film God

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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-17-2000 07:17 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm going to take the unpopular position that digital exhibition is _bad_ for independent/low-budget film. Just look at the costs: ten 35mm prints of a normal-length feature would run about $20k. Full-resolution scanning of 35mm interpositive to digital form would run about $150k. Thus, I would say that the cost issue alone would make limited releases fairly rare, which would have the undesirable side effect of making it more difficult to get a film with relatively limited appeal into theatres. And forget about self distribution...

People say that digital acquisition will help this issue (by avoiding the film-scanning costs), but it seems like none of these people have actually looked at the costs: you can buy a serviceable 16mm sync camera/editing package (CP-16 or 16BL, Nagra, Steenbeck, etc.) for about $10k. A Digital Betacam camera/editing setup (which is a compressed digital format with less resolution than 16mm) would run upwards of $100k. You could buy a _lot_ of 16mm filmstock and pay for several 16->35 blowups for the $90k price difference! And the 16mm equipment won't become obsolete in a few years, like video equipment seems to do. And the 16->35mm blowups will look better than Digital Betacam can ever hope to. And you don't have to pay for "mastering" the Digital Betacam footage onto DVD-ROM or whatever format will be used for theatrical distribution. Heck, you can get a serviceable 35mm camera package for about $40k, used...

Yes, I agree that digital production (consumer-grade DV, etc.) might be a good thing on the very low end of the scale, but film production and exhibition will be more economical for the upper-low-budget films that are most likely to get released.

And I won't even mention the archival concerns of magnetic tape, CD-R, etc.

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
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 - posted 05-17-2000 08:03 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn.
I didn't see SW1 and won't see SW2 although I am a SciFi fan. I'm getting really tired of computer effects. They're so ....computery. Give me stop motion and strings on the giant spider, anytime. It gives my voluntary suspension of disbelief, a chance to exercise. Filmakers in general need to figure out that special effects of any kind are only an aid to telling the story, not the story itself. Kinda reminds me of the James Bond movies and their advance into gimmicks, impossible physics, and absurdity.

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Jason R. Weinsteiger
Film Handler

Posts: 34
From: Kutztown, PA, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-17-2000 09:40 AM      Profile for Jason R. Weinsteiger   Author's Homepage   Email Jason R. Weinsteiger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
greg sayeth:

"Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn.
I didn't see SW1 and won't see SW2 although I am a SciFi fan. I'm getting really tired of computer effects. They're so ....computery. Give me stop motion and strings on the giant spider, anytime. It gives my voluntary suspension of disbelief, a chance to exercise. Filmakers in general need to figure out that special effects of any kind are only an aid to telling the story, not the story itself. Kinda reminds me of the James Bond movies and their advance into gimmicks, impossible physics, and absurdity."

-----

i hear and agree with what you're saying. i love seeking out bad movies with cheesy special effects (probably the reason i so eagerly became a MSTie). But, it's Star Wars, man! give in and watch it! don't make me use the jedi mind trick on you..

jasoN

------------------
"That's what life is - a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of muppets." -Dante Hicks

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 05-17-2000 10:00 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IMHO, the first trilogy (especially "The Empire Strikes Back") had much more "heart and soul" than TPM. AFAIC, TPM was "eye candy" just one level above a video game. I fondly remember seeing the sharp and detailed 70mm prints of "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" on huge screens, and suspect we won't see that level of quality again.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-17-2000 11:15 AM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is in response to the comments regarding film vs. digital in the way of capture and how it impacts independant or low budget features.

I am directing a low budget independant film that goes into production in late july. We thought long and hard about it and finally came to the conclusion to use digital rather than film for capture. heres why:

1. We will use the Canon DMXL-1. It captures images at 625 full frame horizontal fields, 25 times a second. After line doubling and lazer film recording, the resolution will be greater than that of 16mm film.

2. The camera will record in 16.9 format, and we will have an anamorphic attachment to force a full 2.4 to 1 ratio, full widescreen without any cropping, keeping the full resolution.

3. Instant editing. We can edit on location, that moment. Try that with film.

4. Our shooting ratio will be 100:1. Sorry but I just cannot afford that in film.

5. Its true that we will spend roughly $500,000.00 in film recording cost with the transfer we want, HOWEVER, you still cannot get the shooting ratio like 100:1 on film for that kind of money, not even in 8mm.

6. With our monitor, we will be able to see what it looks like before and during the shoot, not one single thought will enter our minds if it looks right once we get the dailys back.

7. True it shoots 25 full frames instead of 24, but we will slow it down to 24 frames and it will not ever be noticable. As for sound, that is taken care of in re-recording anyway, so that isnt even a problem. The sound will be normal.

8. AND DAMN I LOVE THIS CAMERA!!!

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"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"

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