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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » long interconnect ( balanced ) to amp and short wires to subwoofer or the opposite ? (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: long interconnect ( balanced ) to amp and short wires to subwoofer or the opposite ?
John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 12-31-2000 10:52 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are several places to get wire termination parts... It hard to suggest exactly what you would need since there are so many choices, and we don't know your paticular requirements...

How about these crimp pin/socket terminals? The wire gets crimped in the socket end and the pin goes in the hole of the binding post and gets screwed down. Look here:
SUPER LONG URL HIDDEN TO MAINTAIN NORMAL PAGE WIDTH


Or a larger lug.. that is screwed down by the binding post, like this:
SUPER LONG URL HIDDEN TO MAINTAIN NORMAL PAGE WIDTH


Also, general wire plugs/jacks...

Here's a dual banana jack so you can unplug the speaker from the amp... (bottom of page)
http://www.brimelectronics.com/BanPlugs.HTM

Others...
http://www.hhsmith.com/insulatedbanana.html
http://www.johnsoncomp.com/bjack.htm


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 12-31-2000 11:01 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce...

18 feet is not very long, but I would feel uncomfortable with two parallel runs right next to each other.

But it will probably be OK for home use. The run is not very long and the power levels are low.

You do look like you are enjoying that FG... have you tried mixing in a little JD with it??

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David Baum
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 11:19 AM      Profile for David Baum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
the drink seems tasty indeed !!

btw, someone knows what max AWG size I can use on the screw terminals of the QSC DCA ?
if they are the same as those I have on my JBL 3677, AWG 8 should fit ( but this is the maximum ).


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-31-2000 12:18 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I prefer long low level balanced lines for subs. I usually use a BGW M1100 or M2200 sub anyway and these have internal amplifiers. Without a doubt the best made and performing subwoofers on the market and totally reliable so there is no worry to have to troubleshoot behind a baffle wall!
My second choice is to use at least #8 AWG stranded THHN wire as per J.A. if the amps are located in the booth, as in JBL or E-V situations. I have never really had a problem with hum, RF or anything else interferring with either situation and the Salt Lake area has more RF garbage than most other large citys have. For surrounds 70 volt systems are long obsolete. In the almost 20 years I have been in this buisness I don't think I ever installed one anyplace. I also do not agree with J.A.'s autoformer theory. Can cause too much phase shift at certain frequencys..... you can see it on a scope! I stick with mainly prallel wiring. I try to stay away from series parallel if possible. For all parallel I simply use more amps and also I install amps rated for 2 ohm loads so there is never a problem.
Happy New Years everyone!
Mark


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 12:44 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bruce, don't use that UF for speaker wire. The wires are not twisted in that stuff. Besides, most UF I have seen contain solid conductors. Drive-in theaters used lots of that crap, but in that case it really didn't matter. The sound quality from that little 3 inch speaker sucked anyway.

Oh, by the way, when I mentioned twisting speaker wires with an electric drill, I meant twisting them. I didn't say anything about strangling them! A little common sense prevails here...


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David Baum
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 05:28 PM      Profile for David Baum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark

at least AWG 8 wires to feed the subs ?? then how bigger would you even recommend ???
back to my question, how big wires can I use on the screw terminals of the QSC DCA then ? (in this configuration, the wires will be maximum 45ft long, probably 30ft )

but now since you raise the quite acceptable option of running long balanced cables to the amp sitting next to the subs, I am back to my former option

argh!, Happy 2001!

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David Baum
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 06:17 PM      Profile for David Baum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
since we are deep into subs speakings, what would U do here:
QSC DCA 2422 bridged per each 4645C or
QSC DCA 3422 stereo (higher damping factor then) ?
money is an issue ( go to get a Barco projector too, sec-hand ) so.... option 1 ( 2422H first would allow me to start in stereo and then add a 2422H later on ...) seems more "reasonnable" for now
room is 10,000 cbic meters, max length is 53ft ).


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-31-2000 06:26 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Seeing that this is for home use, isn't the speaker-cable issue kind of moot, assuming that the run is fairly short? I've always just used lamp wire (which, I believe, is 18 gauge) for 5-10-foot speaker wire runs at home and it works fine. Probably not ideal, but it's cheap and readily available.

BTW, what's the difference between the QSC DCA amps and the MX series that I'm more familiar with? From the ads, it looks like the DCA amps are easier to set up with the QSC booth monitor, but what's the difference with respect to the actual "guts" of the amp? I don't think I've actuallly seen these in use anywhere yet, and would be interested to know if they sound substantially better than the MX series.

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David Baum
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 06:37 PM      Profile for David Baum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Scott

Well, I had the chance to listen to some DCA with DAS speakers ( French brand ) at a HT fair 2 years ago and their sheer power, dynamics and violence of sound I should say was amazing. They now start to become THE amps of choice for pro-style home theaters in France for instance. Here in Belgium, the Kinepolis group is now switching entirely to these DCA amps starting this year ( mix of BGW and QSC USA were used so far ). Kinepolis is the largest European cinema complex group.
The main difference I think is the powerwave technology and the full control of the amp functionning. It's really super high tech, super solid hardware. There's full remote computer control too via DCMs controllers.

As for the wire size, I can REALLY tell the difference when feeding my subs with 4mm2 wires and 6mm2. I imagine the sound with AWG 6 from a QSC DCA sitting on top of the sub ( I think I will go that way, long balanced XLR and short wires ).

regards
David

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-31-2000 08:33 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul:

No kidding, using a drill or like method of twisting the wires is incorrect no matter how few revolutions you put on the cable...it is undo stress on the conductors and should be avoided.

If after creating the lay there is a spring action to the cable, it was done wrong.

Using a drill or like system to do the twisting actually twists each wire in the cable (not the goal) in addition to twisting the various conductors. It is simply wrong and should be avoided. (Kinda like wrapping up a mic cable over your shoulder and arm).

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 09:06 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, I'll take you word on that. But, there were several applications where I had to do it to cancel out the magnetic field. Mutual induction into adjacent high impedance cables is not too cool.

When I twist them, I usually throw away the first and last 6 feet of the wire. The remaining have about 4 to 5 twists per foot, and they are loose twists, no straining. If the wire size I need is larger than AWG 12 THHN, I'll use the stuff John Allen recommends.


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John Eickhof
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 588
From: Wendell, ID USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 10:12 PM      Profile for John Eickhof   Author's Homepage   Email John Eickhof   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Twisting cable is acceptable with a power drill as long as you check the lay of the strands of the conductors you are twisting, the new twis must lay the same direction as the strands in the conductors, Visualize wire rope...Wire factories do this exactly the same way, only they have fancier machines to do the work!!! Happy new year!

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 12-31-2000 10:26 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you, John. The strand lay is clockwise, and that is the way I have been twisting them. Happy New Year!


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-01-2001 11:44 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nope, I'm standing firm on this one...twisting with a drill is just plain wrong! You are actually increasing the amount of twist within each conductor in addition to twisting the conductors together. A proper lay does not do that.

Again, if you were to mark the top side of each conductor's jacket and then perform your twist, that line should stay on top for the whole length of th cable...with a drill it will twist as well.

I don't care how many of you stand up and say it is ok or that you have done it that way (cuz I have too), it is still the wrong way to twist wire and it increases the stress on each conductor.

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-01-2001 12:50 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I twist them in a drill as well
What I do is I have a bar that is 8" long with 2 holes in the ends and a bolt welded in the centre
THe wire is put on in each hole and the drill run on slow with a person walking up and down the run pushing the twist along. I do about 1 twist per 6" and I have only had the odd one spring. Also I usually use fine stranded type TEW wire rather than the stiffer THNN

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