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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Kollmorgen lenses (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Kollmorgen lenses
John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 02-22-2001 03:32 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, the idea of a test film on the beginning is a good one, but that test film (the 35PA) is painstakingly printed on very accurately punched stock from an original. Prints for theaters are 2 or 3 generations removed, using duplicating machines that run at high speed, using film stock that is not punched as accurately.

Although, to answer your real question, many theaters are cheap, plain and simple. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but that's usually the reason. Many times the public will accept lower quality if they don't know better, or there no other theater close by.

In addition to focus, different lamps, lenses, screen types will change the color temptature, requiring a 3-color temp meter (very expensive, $20,000 last time I looked.)

There are some places that do care, but it takes money, and theaters have always been a 'feast-or-famine biz' kind of biz.

I do feel that printing a simple version of a test/alignment film onto the heads or tails (just like the "color-test-girl") would be very beneficial, but no one liked my idea when I suggested it awhile ago (sniff-sniff!) I did make a proposed pattern, if anyone wants to see it.


Larry Myers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: Herndon, VA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 02-22-2001 04:15 PM      Profile for Larry Myers         Edit/Delete Post 
Hi

I am not suggesting that a full blown projector test image be printed on the head of the film. I was just thinking of a simple focus test and maybe a lens test.

In the machinist world you have "go" and "no go" gauges. I am sure the resolution of the print film would support a diffraction pattern that would spell out "go" in focus and "no go" in a defocus condition.

Just a thought.

I am using a Kollomorgen BX241 3.75 inch lens in my system. The same lens listed in the beginning of the post. I am also using a Kollomorgen-ISCO KA298 Anamorphic. Both together have been opticl bench tested at about 125 l/mm at 15 ft. Not bad for an old system and at 15 ft.

I should retest it. At the time only interested in how close I could get the anamorphic to focus and not it's maximum resolution.

Larry

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-22-2001 04:55 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A resolution chart printed on release prints probably wouldn't provide all that much information that would be actually useful due to the problems inherent in high-speed printing. I would like to see VistaVision-style cue marks at the start of each reel, though, with the 1.85, 1.66, and 2.00 framing marks. Obviously, this would be for flat prints only...

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-22-2001 06:46 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry:
I'm not surprised that you got 115 lp/mm on an optical bench. But when you put that old lens in a projector, it doesn't handle the heat-deformed film image as well as a modern lens, especially at the edges of the image. It likely has a much higher level of optical flare than a modern multi-coated lens. The best system test available today is the SMPTE 35-PA (RP-40) Projector Alignment Film, which puts the entire projection system through its paces for resolution, chromatic aberration, focus uniformity, steadiness, travel ghost, geometric distortion, and image size.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


Larry Myers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: Herndon, VA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 02-22-2001 07:23 PM      Profile for Larry Myers         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, I am sure resolution readings would change with a test in the other direction. My ony reason for the optical bench test is to see just exactly how close I could focus the anamorphic.

Actually, I did get to 12.5 ft before resolution fell off a cliff. I didn't check it the other way. I am sure these lenses are distance dependent and have a peak resolution distance.

The Kollmorgen ISCO KA 298 German made anamorphic was pulled out of a newer bankrupt theater. It does say ISCO on it. Does anyone know the history on this optic?
It looks to me that Kollmorgen and ISCO at least had one lens in common.

I do think that a simple focus test or maybe a Phase Contrast target using the words "go" and "no go" could be done. It would not take any more technology then the digital sound timing data located on the edge of the film.

It would be more or less using a Moire pattern to check focus and lens quality. I guess I am sort of into Moire patterns. They are kind of fun to play around with.

I notice that several people on the net have the newer ISCO MC lenses for sale for about $200 each. I would like to get down to about 3 inches focal length. I just might buy one of these.

Larry


Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-22-2001 08:29 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, those old Kollmorgan lenses make excellent magnifying glasses...when you use one of those to inspect film path around the scanner drum and slit lense target while the film is running, you can verify errors very easily!

Also, you can use them to read the fine print on perscription bottles! (Us old foggies need that....)

You can easily see that steel sliver you ran into your thumb so you can yank it out with a wire cutter, blah blah blah..., and if you are not well-endowed, they can be very handy in the restroom. (Ahem)


Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-23-2001 05:16 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Better yet,
Get a short loop of the Schneider test and target film and use that for the comparison. Its much better that RP-40! There are few lenses out there, including Schneiders, or Iscos, that have an easy time with that film. Everything in the projection chain must be adjusted perfectly. A true acid test film!
Mark @ GTS


Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-24-2001 09:03 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Schneider test film is too black overall. Part of what you are testing is the heat absorbtion of the film.

Now I too have issues with 35-PA not being nearly consistant enough.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-24-2001 01:09 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stewve,
Thats the best feature of the Schneider film. It tells you several things. 1. That the film is or is not getting too hot. 2. How good the depth of focus of your lens is. 3. It gives you an idea of how well the lens can control flare. For instance try it woth a Magnacom and you will see what I mean. These have no light baffles at all and the flare is horrible. Indeed the Schneider film is a great acid test that not many systems can project properly. If you utilize this test film to mnimize film flutter as much as possible you WILL have a better projected image!
Mark @ GTS

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-24-2001 05:27 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

The problem is that it isn't representative of the typical frame...it is too black. Sure it will put the optical system through it's paces and give you more information than 35-PA in some respects, but isn't as good in others.

One of the nice features with it is the grid lines to see geometric distortions caused by the lens and keystone. (SMPTE used to produce a film called 35-FA that had a better grid and was more of a neutral gray).

On your Magnacom tests...have you tried different vintages? For instance, ISCO has two different versions now (Type S and Type-L) that replaced the older Magna-com 65. Schneider still has theirs. Then there are the old Kollmorgan Magna Coms.

A current magnacom or Ulta-Star Zoom Converter (as they are now called) can be a dynamite lens in the proper application.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-24-2001 06:11 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The magnacoms and zoom convertors can be handy in an emergency but they produce either too much barrel or pincussion distortion depending on which one you go to. IMHO way too much distortion for everyday use. Have tried em and was always disappointed. I have not tried the new variable primes yet, but doesn't look like much more than a standard backup with a zoom converter built in. If Manufacturers correct for all of the distortion in these adaptors no one could afford them and they would contain 20+ elements as do high quality Cinematogaphy zoom lenses. As far as the Magnacoms go they still do not have any light baffles to stop stray reflection within. Henry Greese told me that they do not sell enough of them to make including the baffles economically feesable.
The Schneider film isn't any blacker than say outer space segments in a Star Trek, or Star Wars film. And definately a good deal of Rear Window in I.B. Tech is easily as black as the test film. Thats what makes Rear Window's cinematography so good! Professional lens test projectors used in testing lenses in the shop or laboratory also utilize a black background with white resolution lines and lettering. Several of these use laser cut metal plates that go beyond the resolution of a photoetched version.
Mark @ GTS

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-24-2001 07:26 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So then you haven't tested the new ISCO "zoom converters" aka Magna-coms? And I mean new...at least the Type "S" looks to be of a new design in that the front of it is significantly larger than the magna coms of yesteryear.

As I said before, in the right application, Magna-Coms can be wonderful. Take, for instance, projecting onto a Cinerama Curve screen...what distortion? The picture will start to square up more so than with a conventional lens...sure the sides will pincushion a bit but this is less noticable than the barrel distortion of a conventional lens on horizon lines. In fact, the Zoom Converters are nice on curved screens in general where the radius is less than throw.

As to Schneider's Variable Primes...The claim is that they offer a varible focal length without any of the downfalls of traditional zoom attachments. In fact, Dwight wanted to have the front of the lens say something to the effect of " not a zoom, not a magnacom!" Hence the "variable prime" designator to make it sound somewhat better. Personally, I think they are just too expensive for what they offer, that is the bare minimum of cropping. Now that Schneider and ISCO offer the shorter focal lengths in 2.5mm increments, what is the point? The fringe area caused by the aperture plate spacing from the film plane has a greater effect than the 1mm of focal length difference!

Well those are my opinions and observations.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-24-2001 09:24 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Although Mark is correct that the Schneider test film is good at evaluating the "worst case" situation of a silver-image B&W film and high overall density, I agree with Steve that the SMPTE 35-PA (RP40) does a better job of looking at the effect of radiant energy on the focus uniformity of "average" picture material. And in reality, the color (magenta dye) SMPTE 35-IQ film should also be used as a final check:
http://www.schneideroptics.com/projection/testfilm.htm
http://www.smpte.org/testmat/rp40.pdf

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-24-2001 09:49 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,
I agree with you on the use of a magnacomon a curved screen. The main problem though is of flare. Sharpness and efficiency are not an issue on these lenses. As far as the variable primes are concerned the idea is sound if the distortion is low. Personally the price is way to high for me. I agree that with 2.5mm increments there is not really a need for them. I suppose that for a rental department situation they would be nice though.
Mark @ GTS

Stefan Scholz
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 223
From: Schoenberg, Germany
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-25-2001 04:24 AM      Profile for Stefan Scholz   Author's Homepage   Email Stefan Scholz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

I have recently (yesterday) tested the new ISCO Ultra Star HDZoom converter on a Siemens / Bauer U4 projector. With this type of projector, you need to use the converter, as the base lens remains, and only the attachment is changed with the electric turret. The picture looked extremely good, and with RP40 the distortions were not worse than with the other projector's lenses.
Compared to the original black converter that was delivered with the projector, and something called ISCO MagnaCom, the evolution isclearly visible. The two mentioned typed are good for one purpose only - Glass, valuable recycling material.



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