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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » "Cinema Paradiso" and Cinemecchanica in Italy... (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: "Cinema Paradiso" and Cinemecchanica in Italy...
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 04-19-2001 07:16 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To back up what John, Joe and others have said: once ignited, you cannot extinguish a nitrate fire. You can contain and manage it, which are what spoolboxes are designed for.

That is why all well-designed projector spoolboxes are not airtight, but have an 'lip' directed away from the operating side of the projector so that the flames don't hit the projectionist in the face. As an added precaution, restricting the amount of film per reel to 1,000ft will limit the amount of toxic fumes generated if a reel goes up. With adequate air extraction capacity in the projection box, enough of the fumes will be sucked out to prevent the projectionist from being overcome before he or she can escape. But all this depends on the projectionist not attempting to fight the fire and following the rule that John and Joe have both stated: get out, then let it burn out.

As for the wisdom of attempting to project nitrate at all, I wrote a paper about this when I was a film archiving student. Having spoken to people at all the cinemas in Europe I could find that still do it (a grand total of four, two of which are archive preview theatres), the rules which everyone follows are:

1. Don't do it if the print shows early signs of decomposition (i.e. if it is sticky).

2. Don't do it if the print is significantly shrunk. The NFT used a 'shrinkometer' gauge to measure linear and width shrinkage, and up to 5% on either was considered acceptable.

3. Don't do it if there is any significant perforation damage.

4. Only project 1,000ft reels at a time. If necessary split up 'double' reels and add leaders, tails and cue marks as needed.

5. Never, ever attempt to project a preservation element. The only nitrate prints suitable for projection are 'surplus' nitrate release prints acquired by an archive, i.e. better quality elements and of a closer generation to the camera negative are already preserved.

If all these criteria are satisfied and in a box with the proper safeguards (spoolboxes, adequate air extraction, fire shutters on the ports, at least two separate exits from the projection box leading to different parts of the building and a separate storage area for the nitrate reels with a fire resistant door seperating it from the main projection box), then you can do it.

And it's well worth the effort - nitrate prints have a sharpness and density which I've never seen in any acetate or poly print. I don't care about the fact that, theoretically, there's no technical reason why they should look any better - they just do! And my generation is almost certainly the last that will ever see a nitrate print projected - sad in a way.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-20-2001 12:49 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not saying that there was anyting that Alfredo could have done once the thing caught fire. I meant that once the magazine was opened the fire was allowed to spread. Had the magazine been left shut, maybe the fire would have gone out by itself once all the film was consumed.

There was a part in the film when he was teaching Toto and he said that if the film caught fire you could take a pair of scissors and cut the film. (Ostensibly to keep the fire from going up into the magazine.) Although that makes sense, logically speaking, it just seems pretty darned unrealistic to me.

If it were me in a situation like that, you could bet dollars to donuts that I'd be out the door in a heartbeat!

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-20-2001 01:12 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's why they had steel fire trap rollers between the magazine and projector head, as well as between the soundhead and magazine.

If the nitrate film caught fire in the projector and sound head, the rollers would quench it before it spread to the magazines.

Hydrogen Peroxide was used to clean up the mess in the projectors and soundheads. But, if it spread to the magazines, you tripped the porthole shutters on your way out of the booth.

They had a common trip - usually by the exit door. You didn't have too much time to get out. The fumes were very toxic.

I think some booths had heat fuses to drop the steel shutters in the portholes in case the projectionist could not get to the main ripcord.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-20-2001 08:29 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Starving the fire of Oxygen by smothering it in an airtight spoolbox actually increased the exploson hazard and also created the enviroment to produce a version of Phosgen gas (mustard gas). In a article in the 40's smpe jurnal (notice the T is missing) was expounding the merrits of the european magazines that had screened air vent in them to allow a vent and air intake in the event of a fire and some very interesting test photos. THe issue it was in I have long ago forgotten.
In the design of the GK21 it contained a built in pryne extinguisher in the head to extinguish the fire automatically
Phillips and several others had a guncotten fuse and trip switch that had a cutter in the magazine trap to cut and seal the entrance to the magazine in the event of a film pile up or gate flash

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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 - posted 04-20-2001 10:22 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course, we're talking about a film, which means reality is put on hold, at least a little.

It could be reasoned that Alfredo was just a small-town projectionist, but without the benefit of knowedge that a big-city operator would have. He didn't get to hear or see the things that would happen to big-city operators, who would tell their fellows at the local watering-hole. He didn't have Film-Tech!

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Leo Enticknap
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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 04-20-2001 01:15 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wish that today's projector manufacturers would ressurrect the cutter in the magazine trap - it would be ideal for cutting polyester film in the event of a platter wrap to prevent it from pulling rollers out of alignment or moving the photocell.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

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From: Mount Vernon WA USA
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 - posted 04-20-2001 02:47 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Leo, there are film tension sensing devices available that mount on the platter tree which will shut down the system in event of a pay-put head wrap.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

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From: Mount Vernon WA USA
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 - posted 04-20-2001 02:53 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am under the impression that Carbon Tetrochloride was a good agent to fight and extinguish Nitrate film fires. Can anybody address that issue?


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 04-20-2001 04:41 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes carbon tet did put out nitrate wery well but caused genetic changes in future generations

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 04-20-2001 04:45 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul - in my experience platter 'wrap detectors' often fail to operate until the wrap has put the film under quite a lot of pressure between the feed unit and the projector. When used in conjunction with a wrap detector, a cutter (operated either by the wrap detector itself or a motion detect sensor) would surely increase the chances of relieving this pressure before serious damage was inflicted. After all, this was the built-in safeguard with acetate - when put under any significant pressure, it just broke.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

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From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 04-20-2001 06:38 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree, by the time most tension failsafes engage, it's already too late (the time the motor takes to wind down to a stop will damage the film anyway in most cases), especially with Christie and NeuTronic platters, which don't have the rollers around the perimeter of the brain...

Aaron

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

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From: Mount Vernon WA USA
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 - posted 04-20-2001 09:29 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, thanks for the info.

The lack of parameter rollers around the pay-out head = a disaster looking for a place to happen! I forgot about those sytle platters. You would think by now a retro-fit kit for those machines would be available.

Personally, I really never really believed in those wrap detectors. Most of the wraps occur because of improper threading, the tail came loose and snagged the pay-out, or a sticky film or a shitty splice doubled up and sucked itself through the payout head as well as a button or switch being in the wrong position. And, true - some designs leave a lot to be desired.

Of course, equipment failures do happen, but I don't think (percentage wise) it is the main cause like everyone says it is. As with any piece of equipment, it will fail if abused, neglected, or operated outside the machine's specifications.


Yes, Gordon - Carbon Tet is some very nasty stuff! Supposedly, it is illegal in the US, but I don't know about other countrys.


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Randy Stankey
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From: Erie, Pennsylvania
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 - posted 04-21-2001 01:03 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I volunteered at the local Warner Theatre, that booth (originally built in 1932) had all the shutters, etc. Each shutter had its own hold-up wire with its own fusible link. Also there was a "main" fusible link that would drop all of them at the same time. Yep! The handle was right by the door. (Actually, there were two handles. One by each door.)

The exhaust fans for the carbons were pretty huge, even by "old-time" standards. They were in a seperate room. (Per fire code) One for each projector. They were giant squirrel cage blowers, each about 3 feet in diameter. Once you got them both going they could cause a draft strong enough to almost suck the door shut. There were "bypass" dampers you could use to regulate the flow of air out of the lamphouse. Judging from what you all are saying I bet the overkill was done on purpose as an attempt to suck out any fumes in case of a tragedy.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 04-21-2001 03:35 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kelmar did (and probably still will) make the "CHOPPER" and later the "CHOPPER II"

It did as you say...as the tension increases, it would draw a blade across the film (like scissors) to cut the film as it entered the projector.

Better designed "wrap detectors" use a "yo-yo" system like on the take up so the projector can run down without increasing the tension. Neumade, Big-Sky and SPECO have this type of sensor (and probably others). Another big thing to remember is to have the wrap detector shut the automation down...some are designed to merely turn off the take up platter so when the take up roller drops (or runs out) the normal failsafes will take over....the problem is, in a high tension situation, the take up roller won't drop.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

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From: Loma Linda, CA
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 - posted 04-21-2001 03:46 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All the platter wraps I have had at this cinema have been caused by a build-up of static causing layers of film to stick to each other, and so two or more layers of film get sucked into the feeder simultaneously, then... crunch! Our platters (Cinemeccanica CNR-35s) do have rollers around the feed unit perimeter and these will fend off mild static attacks, but they can't cope when a print gets severely charged up. As for the wrap detectors, their funamental design flaw is in the magnet which holds the roller on the bottom of its shaft. If you make it strong enough to only release the roller in the event of a serious wrap, then by the time sufficient pressure has built up to lift the roller off the magnet and hit the microswitch which tells everything to stop, film will already have mangled in the feed unit, and usually in the projector as well.

On the other hand, if you decrease the strength of the magnet you'll get shows stopping unnecessarily.

This is why I feel that a cutter might be a better solution. The kind of thing I have in mind is an assembly which sits on top of the platter tree consisting of a motion detect roller and a spring-loaded cutter blade held back from the film path by an electromagnet. If the motion detect roller says no motion, then power to the magnet is switched off (as well as power to the platter and projector) and the film is cut as near as possible to the feed unit. That way you'd relieve the pressure caused by the projector mechanism pulling at jammed film straight away.

The downside would be a cut in the film, but if it's a choice between that and several mangled feet (which would need two cuts to remove from the print anyway) then I'd suggest that one cut is by far a lesser evil.

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