Overall I think Mark, Gord and Rory are missing the point and taking a single comment to the extreme here. No one ever said that an auditorium should be EQ'd by ear. I've never said it. I don't think Joe ever has. Before you try and say that John F. Allen claims to have, I do not believe he has...and come to think of it, I don't think I've heard anyone EVER say that. To clarify, the entire argument here is whether the HF slope should be fine-tuned / tweeked by ear AFTER the entire EQ has been carefully set with whatever kind of analyzer system or pink noise generator a specific tech prefers to use. I know when I personally finish an EQ, I play several reels of film that I have heard time and time again without ever taking the mics out of the auditorium or packing up the RTA. If it seems that the HF needs to be tweeked just a touch, I do it WITH the RTA and not literally "by ear". (The use of the words "by ear" is where I think the confusion is residing in this discussion.) When I say "by ear" I am referring to using real human hearing and not a machine to evaluate the overall tone of the playback, but all initial and "tweeking" adjustments are still performed with the RTA in front of me. I honestly do not think anyone is that good as to be able to set an EQ without at bare minimum an RTA and one mic.

And getting back to the first question of the thread, if tweeking the final HF rolloff a tad up or down by ear is such a bad thing, I find it interesting that my faders sit right at 7 while other systems EQ'd by various techs sit on 5; both systems being set to the same SPL levels. Kinda weird how that works, but sound is all subjective anyway.Still I agree 100% with Mark's earlier comments about setting the fader to the dialogue. The dialogue should be clear and during scenes where the actors are talking at a normal level, the volume should be not be loud nor soft. The rest of the mix will fall right into place from there.

Of course, this method depends on having a piano tuner who is not tone deaf.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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When I say that I play familiar source material, I have a small collection of rejected reels of film that were never picked up by the depot for whatever reason. After a random reel sits in the booth for 6 months, I will go back into a known good sounding auditorium and play it to decide if I want to claim it to my collection. Most of them I reject, but some of them I end up keeping. One of these days, I am going to sit down and edit 5 minutes here and 2 minutes there and assemble a compilation reel for tuning. (Fortunately, all of these reels have all digital formats on them.)

One of the best reels I have come across was from Detroit Rock City. While the movie only ran for 2 weeks in theaters, it actually has a very good track to check EQ by. There are bits in there that are supposed to be just a touch harsh (loud electric guitar music), others that should not be, variations in bass that are directed only through stage speakers and others that only come through the subwoofer (which both should appear at the same intensity) as well as good use of the surrounds and their levels in respect to the stage channels. After playing this reel in several theaters that have always had excellent sound, I made mental notes of which parts should be reproduced which ways and can now play that reel in an auditorium and tell if the subwoofer is too low, too high, if the surrounds are at a correct level and if there is a peak in their EQ as well as the overall stage channel's EQ settings. This film won't sound really smooth if the system is lacking and frequently will sound harsh in many auditoriums that are over-EQ'd or do not have the correct treble rolloff. If you are particularly proud of a certain installation, contact New Line and see if they will loan you a print to play (or get a dts timecode generator and a set of discs). If you agree that the film mix is fantastic (which on a good installation should), then go play that film in a theater that doesn't sound all that great, but sounds good and you will be shocked at how bad it sounds. I try and find films like this, that basically require a perfectly tuned theater to sound great. Does that make any sense, or am I not explaining my reasoning well enough?

As to the final "by ear" EQing, frequently an adjustment of only one little "bump" on the course treble pot a cat64 EQ card will make WORLDS of difference! The test reels which I was playing at 6 or 6.5 on the fader always end up playing at 7 perfectly after even just a tiny adjustment like that. This is why I still maintain that the final rolloff must be carefully tweeked by ear to achieve this.

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Sound is all subjective anyway. <yawn>

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By the way, what's up with all of the exclamation points!!!!!!?

I knew you were joking....I said it in a serious tone but as a joke as well....no worries from here!!!!!

You must tell me where you theater is located so that I may come by and visit you in person. Sounds like you run a tight ship where ever you are. Do tell!!!!

As for me punctuation.....I always say you can never enunciate enough!!!! hehe

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