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Topic: those silly cardboard reel bands

Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 08-05-2001 10:08 PM

If the print comes with bands, it should leave your theatre with them.

From a collector POV:

When a print arrives as the latest addition to the collection, it is always a pleasant surprise to find original 40 year old bands with the print. This makes the print all the more valuable to me.

These bands managed to stay with the print all those years.

These new TES bands do suck, and dont get replaced when the string breaks.

I think that if they would simply put a THICKER STRING on the bands, there would be much less growling about them from the neglected souls here that have to deal with them every week.

Unfortunately for me, I rarely get prints with bands, anyway.

I have a load of bands here that I replace the strings on before they get labeled for the collection. Kite string from the grocery store works great.

Is decent string too much to ask for?

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 08-06-2001 12:52 AM

Paper bands! HA! I'll bet the damned things carry and hold securely to the film as much crap as would be picked up anyway. I haven't seen a band with string in more than a year. An old retired projectionist I spoke with on the phone a few years ago (he was in the booth at this theatre on opening night Dec. 24 '28) asked whether they were still using the little paper bands and commented that they seemed redundant once tape became cheap and that used properly held much better in shipping than the strings that seemed to usually be loose on half the reels.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-06-2001 02:06 PM

When I first started projecting, in 1976, every print came with bands. To have one "come unwrapped" was rare. I don't know if this is because people cared more about repacking film, or the shipping was less rough, or what...probably a combination.

I do know that the old style of string was "softer" and tended to "stretch" or "give" a little (kind of like comparing a soft nylon rope to a stiff fiber rope), therefore the strings tended to stay tied better.

I think it's amazing that even NEW prints from TES come with broken or missing strings on the bands. What's up with that??!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-06-2001 02:10 PM

I weigh in on the side of using the traditional cardboard bands with the string ties. Most people using tape don't bother to get the "Artists/Architects/Drafting Tape" that can easily be removed without leaving a residue -- regular masking or adhesive tape is hard to remove without leaving a sticky residue behind.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 08-06-2001 02:51 PM

Beware, some kinds of drafting tape do not have enough stick to keep the film taped down during periods of print shuffling and heat. The traditional paper band with elactic string really is the best solution. Of course not when the TES people place their label OVER the string catch, but that's a whole different rant.

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 08-07-2001 12:26 AM

I once got a print of "Turbulence" (MGM from Technicolor) and the reel bands all said "Hotel De Love" on them, but the reels were all the correct ones for "Turbulence". I crossed out "Hotel de Love" before sending the print back.

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John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-07-2001 03:17 PM

On the other hand, from a collector's POV, are those old reel bands made up of acid-free paper, or do they contain acids? If so, they might have the potential to trigger vinegar syndrome. I have a 16mm print from 1946 that was apparently properly stored, yet has early-stage VS. It was packaged in its original shipping bands, which exhibited strong acid paper deterioration.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 04-07-2003 09:27 AM

Over in the Notes in film cans thread, Manny expressed his concern and frustration with reel bands. I think they're better discussed here. *bump*:

"As for the reel bands -- Every single booth I've ever been inside I have seen those bands in the trash."
Then, respectfully, I do not think you have been in enough booths.

Furthermore, fundamentally, please remember that it is not your print that you are handling. It belongs to the studio and is leased through the exchange, and it is their policies that need to dictate how you treat the print, within reason. If the print comes with reel bands, it is appropriate for you to return the print with reel bands. This is an ethical obligation, not a technical one, and you may feel free to disagree. Certainly technical opinions may outweigh ethical opinions, though I think it's clear that there's no "strong technical reason" against reel bands that applies here; quite the reverse, there are many good reasons for reel bands, please read through this thread.

"And I fail to see what purpose they serve in the first place."
To summarize:

Reel bands make it obvious that the ends of film need to be secured prior to shipping. For those film handlers too ignorant to tape down the reel ends, it ensures that they are secured.
Reel bands ensure that the end of the film is secured down in a quality fashion; as you know, there is widespread use of masking tape to tape down reel ends in this industry, and it does not stand the test of time. A print that comes with reel bands avoids this problem. It also avoids the residue that is left by masking tape.
Reel bands allow some convient placement of identification information, and also inspection information that may vary from time-to-time, and thus should not be permanently marked on the print (e.g. TES's questionable "Integrity Inspection" stickers; while it's not abundantly clear what they mean, it is clear they don't belong on the film.)
Reel bands protect against dust and dirt migration onto the film in a way tape cannot possibly do. Detritus and dirt can often be found in the bottom of film cans, and reel bands prevent that dirt from adhering to the outer layer of the print. In time, dirt on the outside portions of the film can make its way inwards.

"ETS and its clients don't think reel bands are important so why is TES so "up" on using them?"
ETS and TES each have their pros and cons. Some do one thing better than the other. For each potentially good thing that one does, you can point to the other and ask why they do not use them...that gets silly. E.g.: "ETS and its non-Sony clients don't think a 24x7 800 number for reel replacements and delivery information is important, so why is TES so ``up'' on having one?"

It's difficult to speculate on exactly what combination of market/business forces, technical issues, experience, and compromise go into making these decisions. I bet it would be hard for an insider to tell you. But what I have learned the more I interact with this industry is that presuming "things are the way they are for a [good] reason" is never a good idea, and is quite frequently wrong.

"Furthermore, if they don't arrive intact then why the heck should they go back intact?"
The golden rule of projection: that a print should leave better than it arrives. But I'm not quite sure what you mean by "intact" -- perhaps you refer to the string catch having failed/broken? I'm not advocating you go out and purchase little paper discs+string and rivet them to your reel bands. In the event that the reel band no longer self-secures, then using tape is appropriate. It's not as good, and will not last as long (tape will secure better to paper than film, but is even harder to remove without damaging the paper), but is superior to tape-on-film.

--jhawk

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 04-07-2003 09:57 AM

Let's clarify one thing here:

I am not a film handler. When I was a film handler, I was damn good at it. So there is no need to lecture me on what is good form. If it came with bands I returned it with bands, even though I think they're a waste of time.

My comments are based on what I have seen in the field.

If projectionists can't be trusted to securely tape down the heads of reels then I'd have to doubt their ability or inclination to monkey around with those paper bands.

[ 04-08-2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-07-2003 02:48 PM

I wonder if the talk here on F-T had anything to do with TES switching to bands with heavier string? TES prints are now arriving here in better shape, thanks to the better string.

Now if we could only get rid of the thin plastic DTS disk cases, and switch to plastic film cans. (Yes, I dream a lot.)

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Gordon Bachlund
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 696
From: Monrovia, CA, USA
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 04-07-2003 03:14 PM

Perhaps because I am a curmudgeon, I too prefer reel bands over tape. Not so many years ago the exchange's inspectors placed gummed inspection seals over the string, so that one could be certain of receiving an inspected, playable print if the seal was unbroken. Back then I never experienced a problem with playing a new print right out of the can without first inspecting it. "Those WERE the days...." [Smile]

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 04-07-2003 06:24 PM

It is an absolute fact that a banded reel holds together better than one that is just taped down. Also of interest is that in my experience even a band which is taped down to itself (because some moron cut the string) has better integrity than film taped down. The paper tape simply sticks better to paper than film. I used to reuse bands only if they had strings; sans strings I'd roll them up and toss them back in the can figuring if I have to use tape I might as well just tape the film down. But upon realizing the latter fact I now use them whether taped or with string.

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Daniel Burns
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 04-08-2003 04:50 AM

I just recently trained a man that used to work for ETS here in dallas and he was surprised when he saw prints come in from ETS that did not have those cardboard wraps. He worked there about seven years ago and he told me they used to use those wraps back in the day. Of course I wasn't around any projection booth seven years ago to know if that was really the case. Thought it was interesting though.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-08-2003 10:22 PM

I've gotten some older prints from ETS with good reel bands still in use, so they still "use" them to the extent that prints that had them originally still do, unless someone removed them along the way. Obviously they aren't using them for new prints, however. [Frown]

Reel Easy also uses reel bands (the good, thick cardboard ones with good-quality string). They also use solid reels (not those plastic split-reel things). Too bad their shipping charges are insane, though.

Does anyone make good reel bands for 16mm prints? I've only seen the plastic things which Swank uses which, as far as I can tell, are utterly useless.

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Jacob Huber
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 172
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 04-09-2003 12:20 AM

I've asked others why they don't use them at my place. Granted, most of them are due to sheer and complete laziness and apathy of what happens to a print once it leaves the theatre, that is, if they even care that long. One reason is that the bands clearly state "Do Not Rewind After Use", which they assume means that the bands are not supposed to go back on the film. If they took these words off, maybe more people would put them back on (ya, right, but you never know).

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