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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Flicker on an older simplex
Tom Kroening
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 214
From: Janesville, WI USA
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 11-14-2001 07:31 AM      Profile for Tom Kroening   Email Tom Kroening   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well i did have a bit of time tonight but not much. I visibly checked the arc itself and it looks very stable. The reflector is on nice and tight. I'd think that it would be very noticable if a film runs slower in analog, but this house has dobly digital (would it even work at less then 24 fps?). This is on the biggest screen in the building. I understand what you mean about the screen being too bright, but even with the old bulb it produced a noticable flicker. I almost had the diode assembly out but someone took my 7/16th wrench so i couldn't disconnect some of the cables. What kind of precautions should I take when attempting to swap out the diode assembly with another power supply? I did notice a spark when i was putting it all back together even though the breakers to the entire room were flipped off. This machine uses an older kniesley rectifier and a 2000 watt lamp. Before i left i checked to make sure everything worked (and of course it did!) but i also opened the douser for a second while the motor was off and did not notice any flickering or instability of the white light whatsoever. Of course this doesnt mean that its NOT a diode, i guess it could just be indetectable without the shutter having the "strobe light" effect to make the flickering visible to the naked eye.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-14-2001 07:56 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matthew Bailey said: "Mr. Pytlak,I believe there is a difference in film speed which is inches per second & frames per second. I figured out that if 6 is subtracted from 24 the film speed & not the 24 frames per second speed is 18 inches per second in other words 1 foot,6 inches per second."

To be precise, standard SMPTE 40 specifies: "The recordings shall be made so that the audio records will reproduce properly at 96 perforations (18 in [457mm]) per second, which is 24 frames per second".

Most people use 90 feet per minute or 18 inches per second as the nominal transport speed of 35mm prints during projection. But if the distance between perforations is exactly the aim of 0.1870 inches, the actual transport speed for 24 fps is 89.76 feet per minute or 17.952 inches per second.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-14-2001 08:57 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The spark you saw is the filter capacitor discharging
They can hold a charge for a very long time. Especially since most Kniesley Rectifiers didn't have a bleeder resisotr across them.
Before servicing any rectifier after locking out the feed to it and to the lamphouse (some lamphouses provide a seperate 120vac back to the rectifiers contactor) Is to take a heavy wire and short out the capacitor.
Since it appears to be storing a charge I think it can be ruled out as the culprit.
If you swap the stack make sure it is with one from a rectifier of the same size. ALSO MAKE SURE THAT THE D.C. OUTPUT IS RECONNECTED WITH THE CORRECT POLARITY OR THERE WILL BE A BIG BANG AS THE CAP BLOWS AND THEN THE LAMP WILL ALSO BE TOAST

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-14-2001 09:33 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon said: "...take a heavy wire and short out the capacitor..."

Is there any risk of damaging the capacitor by discharging it through a direct short? Perhaps it would be preferable to discharge it through a large power resistor, or even through a 100-watt tungsten lamp, to more slowly dissipate the stored energy?

Nonetheless, that capacitor could pack a mighty "wallop" if the current goes through your body!

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 11-14-2001 01:03 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The sparking was because the circuit had an undischarged capacitor. Whenever you service a power supply, you should make sure that any large capacitors are discharged before you start working on the circuit. Otherwise you can shock yourself, or damage other parts of the power supply while replacing components.

Large capacitors are usually cylindrical, like a soda can. They'll be well marked with values in microfarads and volts, such as "20,000 uF 25 V." In a typical power supply, the power transformer is connected to the diodes, which are in turn connected to the capacitors.

The correct way to discharge a capacitor is by using a resistor, NOT by shorting across the capacitor. When you short across the capacitor, not only will you create a spark, but you run a good chance of damaging the capacitor or another component. You can actually melt the tip of a screwdriver by using it to (intentionally or accidently) short out a large capacitor.

Safely discharging a capacitor through a resistor is easy and convenient. I use a 10K ohm 2 watt resistor with alligator clips soldered to each lead. I clip the resistor across the leads of my voltmeter, then use the voltmeter, set to measure DC voltage, to measure the voltage across any large capacitors in the circuit. When I encounter an undischarged capacitor, the voltage on the voltmeter shoots up, then quickly drops off to under one volt as the capacitor discharges.

In a power supply circuit with multiple capacitors, the smoothing capacitors usually wired together, so discharging one will usually discharge them all.

NOTE: Be especially careful when servicing tube circuits, as they utilize MUCH higher voltages than transistor circuits, and are much more dangerous. In a typical tube power supply, the power transformer will be directly connected to one tube, which will in turn be connected to the capacitor(s). When checking a capacitor in a tube power supply, use the voltmeter alone to check the voltage first. If the voltage is over 100 volts, use a 100K ohm capacitor instead of a 10K ohm capacitor.

Power supplies are supposed to contain a protective component called a "bleeder resistor" that essentially acts as a small power leak, so that when you turn the equipment off, any stored energy is bled off over the course of a minute or two. However, if the bleeder resistor fails, or is not present, the power supply can still contain dangerous voltages even after being powered down for weeks. This is especially true of tube circuits.

Also, as John Pytlak suggested, a light bulb would work just as well in place of the resistor. And yes, they are dangerous. Power supply capacitors are designed to store large amounts of energy, and release it very quickly. You don't want to complete the circuit with your body. That would be unfortunate.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-14-2001 09:24 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Large Filter caps have no problem being discharged into a short as in fact the impedance of a xenon lamp is virtually 0 anyway.

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 11-14-2001 10:30 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you have no lens in the projector, you can open the dowser with the motor stopped and the shutter open for a while without melting anything - certainly long enough to see if there is a flicker. Not with a lens in though, there is no way to predict how long a lens would survive - beyond "probably not very long". I would also remove the aperture plate - it's rather thin metal and probably in the hottest part of the beam. Then start the motor and see what it looks like.
If there is no flicker in the light pattern on screen but there is flicker with the motor running, I think the problem must be in the projector not the lamphouse. I know you have checked the shutter but it sounds like there's a problem there. If you see no flicker in the arc, and there isn't flicker with the motor stopped, then there really isn't anything except the shutter that can be causing the flicker. Obviously slow running speed would, but like you say the digital sound is working and that has a pretty narrow speed tolerance. Same with super-bright picture - but you say it flickers with a dim image.

The most common cause is a hole burned right through a shutter blade by someone opening the dowser and changeover with the motor off. This can happen if a motor, belt, or gear fails and there is no film motion failsafe. It should be rather easy to see a holed shutter though...
Anyway, good luck


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-14-2001 10:40 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I never heard of any capacitors that were damaged due to shorting them out to discharge them. Nor, have I damaged any, except for a small pock mark on the screw terminal from the initial arc.

Standard safety equipment for discharging capacitors in the broadcasting industry is with a grounding probe suppled and physically attached to the transmitter main frame. (so it does not get lost) It is nothing more than a grounded metal rod with a wooden handle. This probe has to be hung up on a special interlock switch so the switch closes after the probe has been used to discharge capacitors.

When the doors and panels are replaced after servicing, all these switches on the doors, panels, HV probes, etc. will complete the safety interlock so the transmitter can be fired up.

The discharge probes are similar to what we used with some RADAR sets I serviced while in the navy.

Screwdrivers or alligator clips were used for the boob tubes you have sittin' in your front rooms that you use to watch the cheap VHS movies you rented from Blocksucker Video.

In solid state transmitters, many of the capacitors are even larger in electrical value than what you find in the xenon power supply. The discharge probes do not have any series resistance in them whatsoever. They were just a "dead short".

Oh, by the way - how long is a short circuit?

Paul


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-15-2001 06:54 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave said: "If you see no flicker in the arc, and there isn't flicker with the motor stopped, then there really isn't anything except the shutter that can be causing the flicker."

If there is excessive current ripple from the power supply, you won't necessarily see the 60Hz flicker in the arc with the motor stopped, but the 12Hz flicker "beat frequency" between the running shutter and current ripple WILL be obvious. So I wouldn't rule out excessive current ripple just because it can't be seen without the shutter running.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Matthew Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 461
From: Port Arthur,TX
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 11-15-2001 06:00 PM      Profile for Matthew Bailey   Email Matthew Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a couple of large wirewound ceramic tube resistors
I salvaged from an old elevator controller. They are of
a high enough wattage & probably of several megohms
& able to discharge large electrolytic capacitors.
These resistors have brackets to mount them on the inside
of the elevator controller cabinet. If you can look up elevators
in the phone directory such as under Otis Elevator company
for example & ask if they have such mentioned resistors
that are used on their elevator controllers & tell them what you need the resistors for.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-15-2001 08:00 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matthew: "Several megohms" would take an awful long time to discharge a power supply filter capacitor. Wirewound resistors used in power circuits would typically be much lower resistance. If the resistance is not written or coded on the device, use an ohmmeter to measure it.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 11-15-2001 09:18 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ALWAYS BE CAREFUL ABOUT HOW YOU DISCHARGE A CAP AND FOLLOW RECOMMENDED SAFETY PROCEDURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of those cap really store a lot of energy and can seriously injure you and possibly kill you not to mention damaging other components and maybe cause a fire!

Some of those caps can let off a nice explosion when discharged--we did that for fun in college - but they can also weld and melt a screwdriver across the contacts!

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 11-16-2001 02:39 AM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
Gosh! Yous! I'm "shocked" to read some of these posts.

A xenon lamp is NOT a short or zero ohms (what? impedance? ...AC?) across the power supply. If it were, there would be no light (or heat) out. A typical 7kw lamp runs about 165 amps at about 42 volts. In order to develop the 42 volts across the lamp, it must have resistance. Thus the power supply "sees" a load around 0.25 ohms. A 15kW lamp would see less than 0.1 ohms at 38 volts and 400 amps. These are small but very important "real" numbers and why humongus size, low-resistance wire must be used for the DC to the lamp.

The "Shorting Stick" or automatic shorting bar that is dropped across the HV caps of high-power transmitters or similar high-energy equipment is not for the normal discharge of the capacitor's stored energy. But rather it is assumed that the caps are already discharged. The stick and other devices are exclusively for safety and extra security for the technician when working on the equipment in the event the normal bleeder resistor or circuit fails. It is ALWAYS prudent to short out big caps before working on high-power equipment. Some caps will hold their high-voltage energy for days and longer...including xenon switching power supplies and DC ignitors. Some caps will even regain a charge after being shorted out. And, yes, the equipment can be damaged by a direct short across the cap. Most high-energy capacitors have a safety blow-out plug that will safely vent the internal gases/liquids in the event of excess heat or pressure build up as from a short.

>>> Phil

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 11-16-2001 05:21 AM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well geez, there's not much difference between the humongous wire that connects to the lamp and the screwdriver in my toolkit! By the time you take into account the resistance from all the crud on the blade, you've probably got more on your phillips head than on that lamp. The blowout plugs are there to protect you from a catasrophic explosion in the event of an INTERNAL short in the cap, which leads to a lot of steam. When a power supply is delivering to a large load, those capacitors are charging and discharging 60 times a second! (although admittedly not completely) It's what they're designed to do. Discharging them only once isn't going to make one explode or destroy the dialectric. You can't make them explode by removing energy from the system, but you sure can by putting it in the wrong place....like reversing the polarity and boiling off the dialectric or sticking in enough EMF to arc across the dialectric, causing a "short" internally by punching a hole in it. Believe me, my students do it on a regular basis. They get a big kick out of seeing a little 100mfd 25v cap flying up into the gridwork with a loud "pop". The only "pop" I can ever remember causing was the feed-through capacitor I supernovad on a 50,000 watt FM transmitter one night by overloading it. I thought a bomb had gone off.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-16-2001 10:29 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Phil: I totally agree!

I'm still of the opinion that it is wiser to discharge the capacitors through a resistive load than a direct short. I agree, once the caps are discharged, a shorting jumper is a good idea for operator safety. A "Lockout-Tagout" policy on turning off all power must be followed too.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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