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This topic comprises 7 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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Author
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Topic: The credibility of THX certification.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-17-2013 04:21 PM
"Holy necro-post, Batman!" I wonder if a 4000+ day, 11 year time span is a F-T record for a bump. I'll just won't be impressed by anyone deliberately digging for dead threads from 2001 or earlier to merely to one-up this bump length.
Anyway, regarding THX as it is today (and the original topic of re-certification credibility), the program is a mere shadow of its former self.
THX was already in trouble a decade ago when it was spun off from Lucasfilm and sold to Logitech. It was starting to suffer from integrity issues. The average customer would never know how certification and re-certification was awarded to theaters not worthy of the THX badge. But it wasn't difficult for anyone willing to bother to tell the difference with their ears. Some theaters, like the demolished GCC Northpark #1 gave the THX logo its prestige. Unfortunately lots of THX certified theaters sounded nowhere near as good as that theater. The THX brand made customers like me expect consistent levels of excellence from one THX certified location to the next. When that wasn't maintained the THX brand suffered.
THX also suffered via conditions out of its own control, such as managers on site turning down the sound to not so dynamic levels because some audience member wants the sound to be more like his quiet TV set speakers at home. Sound levels have been turned down at many sites due to obnoxious movie trailer volume levels. Some theaters turn down the audio to protect speaker drivers. Many large theater chains think one "gimmick" is enough when trying to sell the public on visiting its theaters.
THX didn't fare very well at all during the stadium seated theater building boom that started in 1995. It seemed like an either/or kind of situation. Considering how much better standard seated theaters like GCC Northpark sounded versus THX certified stadium seated theaters like the UA Galaxy 9 nearby in Garland I couldn't help but wonder if architects, sound engineers and HVAC experts had any solutions for making stadium seated theaters sound honestly good enough to truly deserve THX certification.
I've seen at least a few multiplex sites that had THX and Dolby SR optical capability in one room and then put DTS or Dolby Digital in a different room. I suspected a mindset that having 5.1 digital playback capability was good enough from a marketing perspective and that THX was unnecessary overkill.
Lately sound on the whole has been taking a back seat to digital projection and digital 3D. The situation with IMAX deliberately blurring the lines between 15/70 large format film presentation and HDTV resolution digital seeded growth of other in-house theater chain premium priced screen "formats." It reminds me of AMC's old HITS system, but at least with that there was some kind of system being implemented. The acronyms these new theaters are throwing up over the entry hardly mean anything at all. THX may have lost some of its brand luster. These new theater labels never earned any in the first place.
THX not only doesn't fit in with the current collection of alphabet soup labels on theater auditoriums, it's being forgotten and replaced by those meaningless labels.
I think the state of commercial theatrical presentation is taking more and more steps backward and probably will continue to do so until a serious downturn in business or some other event causes a reversal in policy.
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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted 07-17-2013 07:19 PM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Sound hasn't been taking a back seat with my customers
Well, what I am hearing in most theatres is not good sound at all. It is just loud sound that is simply ear piercing. In Canada, the best cinemas since 35mm went to digital are the Empire Theatre locations, they have done a superb job of installing a decent projector, masking and they generally have decent sound levels.
At Cineplex, it is downright frightening what they have done with sound.
As for IMAX, I don't mind IMAX all that much, I generally know what I am going to expect anytime I head to a IMAX theatre.
But from the show I saw yesterday, it was downright delightful. I would go more to the cinema if there were more THX theatres.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-18-2013 01:46 AM
quote: Bobby Henderson
THX was already in trouble a decade ago when it was spun off from Lucasfilm and sold to Logitech.
AFAIK it was Creative Labs (from the Sound Blaster lore) and not Logitech. Although Logitech is known to stick THX labels on many of their sound products.
It doesn't really matter if it is Logitech or Creative, the end result would've been almost the same anyway. Both are primarily consumer companies.
Creative used the brand purely for its marketing value and created nonsense certifications for all kinds of gear, even HDMI cables.
Although the self-certification surely helped to destroy the credibility of the brand, not many did actually know that. I guess the brand dilution was what really killed THX. Why would you, as a theater manager, spend thousands and thousands of dollars on the right equipment, certification and re-certification if people can have "THX" at home for a few bucks?
Cisco pulled the same stunt with Linksys. After they bought it, they put a Cisco sticker on every cheap Linksys device they sold. As a result, people now could own a "Cisco" router or switch for just the fraction of the price. It didn't improve the quality of the Linksys products, but it did nothing good to the brand quality image of Cisco. In the end they sold it to Belkin.
It would be equally stupid if Ferrari decided that everybody should be able to own a Ferrari and starts putting a Ferrari stickers on every Fiat or Chrysler car...
Some ubersmart managers think that a brand is worth more than the actual product. That might work for a short while, but when everybody starts to notice you've sold out, things can only go downhill.
Looking at a good cinema certification program, I think the issue is as actual as 11 years ago, maybe even more. There is nothing credible that replaces THX right now. The THX theater program might still be based on generally good principles, but it's outdated and has never been adapted to recent developments. And the cinema landscape has never seen such a dramatic change in technologies, as in the last 15 or so years.
So, I repeat myself from another thread. There are many smart people around here that know what it takes to deliver great sound and picture. They might not agree on everything, but there surely should be a baseline compromise that works. Why not create a new certification program with a catchy name that does a better job at explaining itself to the audience?
THX managed to get money out of it, customers got better quality and certified theaters had a clear marketing advantage...
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Justin Hamaker
Film God
Posts: 2253
From: Lakeport, CA USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 07-18-2013 03:29 AM
From my point of view, I think the real issue with THX is that consumers never really knew/understood what it was. For the average moviegoer, it was never anything more than a name brand they recognized. If they saw THX on the marquee, then it was basically like choosing to buy a Pepsi (or another brand name) vs. the generic equivalent. Consumers usually thought it was a sound or picture format, and didn't really care to hear it was actually a certification process.
To someone who was technically savy, THX certification might have meant something. But to the average consumer, it was just another acronym in the alphabet soup which included DTS, SDDS, SRD, and so forth.
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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted 07-18-2013 08:29 AM
quote: Justin Hamaker
From my point of view, I think the real issue with THX is that consumers never really knew/understood what it was. For the average moviegoer, it was never anything more than a name brand they recognized. If they saw THX on the marquee, then it was basically like choosing to buy a Pepsi (or another brand name) vs. the generic equivalent. Consumers usually thought it was a sound or picture format, and didn't really care to hear it was actually a certification process.
To someone who was technically savy, THX certification might have meant something. But to the average consumer, it was just another acronym in the alphabet soup which included DTS, SDDS, SRD, and so forth.
I believe THX was marketed as a Sound System, that is what the people I know thought of it. I think on the trailers they used to say Sound System or this theatre is equipped with a THX sound system, so it was more than just a certification process to the people watching the trailer.
THX also used to use the catch phrase "Lets See it in THX" on one of their trailers, well that is not far off from "See it in IMAX"
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-18-2013 09:07 AM
The original THX logo had "Lucasfilm Ltd" and "Sound System" above and below the "THX" element. Even though the system was really an overall theater standards certification system it was still marketed like a sound system. The THX crossover, the speaker baffle behind the screen and the mandatory wall treatments were tangible components that built up that sound system image. In a way it put THX into competition with Dolby, DTS, etc. regardless of the fact 5.1 digital processes like Dolby Digital & DTS could sound a hell of a lot better in a THX house than one without all the THX features.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
AFAIK it was Creative Labs (from the Sound Blaster lore) and not Logitech. Although Logitech is known to stick THX labels on many of their sound products.
You are correct. I got the two companies mixed up.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
Looking at a good cinema certification program, I think the issue is as actual as 11 years ago, maybe even more. There is nothing credible that replaces THX right now. The THX theater program might still be based on generally good principles, but it's outdated and has never been adapted to recent developments. And the cinema landscape has never seen such a dramatic change in technologies, as in the last 15 or so years.
This is only a theory, but I think the big move to stadium seated movie theater designs in 1995 marked the negative turning point for THX. You have the one factor of theater chains wanting to sell only one gimmick at a time. And then there's the acoustical issue of stadium seated rooms just not sounding as good as traditional seated rooms. THX was in a trend of growth before 1995. After 1995 they started going downhill.
I saw lots of new stadium seated theaters open without any THX certified screens (not to mention no 70mm capability, even if some of the houses had screens too damned big for 35mm). I saw others open with THX certification on some or even all the houses, but then lose the certification after a short time (I know of at least 2 Hollywood Theaters locations in Oklahoma that did this, including an all-THX site in Tulsa). And then there's the issue Brad mentioned about theater chain techs doing re-certifications and possibly falsifying information and doing other stunts like turning off the HVAC system so the rooms would pass. Chains like Cinemark and Carmike dumped the THX program in broad circuit-wide swoops to save money on the yearly fees.
I think the room acoustics issue continues to be a serious, nagging problem even with THX being used in far fewer theaters these days. These cavernous theaters with very high ceilings are far more prone to echo. The volume of cubic airspace demands more powerful speaker systems for proper coverage & tone, yet I still see most theaters using small surround array speakers best suited for smaller, traditional sloped rooms. Big stadium seated theaters take a lot more HVAC muscle to maintain comfortable temperatures, but that's going to mean more noise. Overall, when it comes to sound in stadium seated theaters somebody is being forced to make compromises. I'm not even sure if it is possible to get rooms like these tuned to the kind of tonality I heard in the GCC Northpark #1 -one of the original THX houses with Tomlinson Holman involved in the setup.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-18-2013 12:08 PM
IMAX hasn't started selling any consumer electronics products or participating with other companies to stamp the IMAX brand on their products. However, IMAX is supposedly working on an IMAX-branded high end home theater system, complete with commercial grade digital projectors and other gear. The system is supposed to cost well north of $1 million. It's for the ultimate douche bag.
Still, IMAX seriously harmed their brand with their move into the digital realm. Their refusal to clearly market the differences between the original 15/70mm film based IMAX process and the HDTV resolution digital process was an all out insult to customers. I consider the idea of any d-cinema movie presented in "IMAX format" to be ridiculous. There is very little in a IMAX digital show that is different from a standard 2K d-cinema show. The screen is a little bigger and they're using 2 projectors instead of one. That may yield a substantial benefit in terms of brightness for 3D, but hardly any benefit at all for 2D. IMAX digital versus the other d-cinema guys is like the difference between a standard 35mm film print and a 35mm film print made specifically for drive-in theaters. Hardly special.
Yet the problem with audio persists in most stadium seated theaters, especially the big ones. I'm sure someone could figure out how to build a big stadium seated theater with audio quality that is honestly excellent. Obviously it would probably take more money than any theater chain is willing to spend on auditorium design, construction and sound system hardware. But, with the kind of premium surcharges theater chains are tacking onto the standard ticket price and the self-congratulatory acronyms they're using to label the room, I think those guys are obliged to spend quite a bit extra to get the sound done right for once.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-18-2013 04:30 PM
quote: Justin Hamaker
From my point of view, I think the real issue with THX is that consumers never really knew/understood what it was. For the average moviegoer, it was never anything more than a name brand they recognized.
I agree with that one, THX never did a good job at explaining itself to the audience.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I believe THX was marketed as a Sound System, that is what the people I know thought of it. I think on the trailers they used to say Sound System or this theatre is equipped with a THX sound system, so it was more than just a certification process to the people watching the trailer.
THX also used to use the catch phrase "Lets See it in THX" on one of their trailers, well that is not far off from "See it in IMAX"
One of their very first trailers (maybe it even was the first) featured the following text:
For the past 35 years,
motion picture loudspeaker
systems have not changed...
Lucasfilm Ltd. and this theatre
are pleasedto introduce a new
motion picture sound system.
Later trailers featured a shorter introduction:
This auditorium is equiped with a THX Sound System
The last generation of trailers features nothing like this, some of them might give you a reference to "THX.com", but that's it.
THX has always been marketed as first and foremost a "sound system". Although "Sound System" may not be the best way to describe it, the main focus always has been on sound, rather than picture or other theater components.
quote: Bobby Henderson
This is only a theory, but I think the big move to stadium seated movie theater designs in 1995 marked the negative turning point for THX. You have the one factor of theater chains wanting to sell only one gimmick at a time. And then there's the acoustical issue of stadium seated rooms just not sounding as good as traditional seated rooms. THX was in a trend of growth before 1995. After 1995 they started going downhill.
Stadium seating never has been much of a hype in Europe. Almost all multiplexes in Europe opened with all-stadium seating, most of them purpose-built. But most traditional theaters with sloped floors didn't bother to convert to stadium seating.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Yet the problem with audio persists in most stadium seated theaters, especially the big ones. I'm sure someone could figure out how to build a big stadium seated theater with audio quality that is honestly excellent. Obviously it would probably take more money than any theater chain is willing to spend on auditorium design, construction and sound system hardware.
I don't share the "hate" regarding stadium seating, I think it can be awesome if done right. I don't like a very steep slope though, you should never exceed about 2/3rds of the screen for the back rows. I've also been to plenty of stadium seating theaters that have very good acoustics.
Don't you think the problems you describe are more the result of the size of the room, rather than the fact that tiered seating has been implemented?
I'm asking that, because I've also noticed a notorious echo in many large auditoriums, even if the walls seem to be sufficiently treated.* Rooms that are too deep, usually have a surround issue, but usually, the stadium seated rooms are shorter than the sloped-floor equivalent.
* I've got my own theory about this, but maybe it's just stupid...
The "echo" is mainly present in speech and not so much in other sound effects. Once a room gets too big, the slight amount of reverberation that's still there changes into echo. Echo is far more distracting than reverberation.
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