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Topic: The credibility of THX certification.

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-20-2013 02:05 PM

Fairview is a good example as there was no more space all they did was floor over the atrium
Back when Rainbow ran it we did the conversion drawings and with 3 theatres over the atrium the total capacity remained the same
The back to back seat distance in most building codes in a stadium theatre is larger than is required in a theatre with a sloped floor by several inches
Plus with a stadium one must provide a entrance point approximately half way down the theatre that also either cuts into auditorium floor space (this is needed as handycapped access to mid point) or loose lobby footprint

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Ron Lacheur
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 650
From: British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-20-2013 04:54 PM

Former Famous Players Guildford 12 was originally a 4-plex that was converted into a 12-plex.

They converted the original slope floor into stadium. They lost over 100 seats in the big house ( from 500 down to 389 ) in the conversion.

In it's hay day, this complex had 8 out of 12 of its screens THX certified. I drive 30 minutes out of my way to watch movies here due to the better sound quality and screens that actually employ side masking.

All of the other cinemas in town that had better sound are now closed and gutted.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-22-2013 09:36 AM

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
Wendy's is fresh and never frozen, they have shareholders.

Wendy's does some creative skating around that, enough that Burger King filed suit against them over the advertising claim. The courts sided with Wendy's, but the court case was still enough to raise eyebrows. Wendy's does freeze its meat patties in its Alaska and Hawaii locations.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Surprise: In-N-Out Burger has shareholders too...

In-N-Out is a 100% privately held company. It has zero shares available to the public to purchase.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Regarding IMAX: I don't like their speaker alignment, but I do like the fact that they use fully sized speakers for their surround.

The problem is IMAX uses only two of these big enclosures for the whole surround field. The speakers are typically stuff up in the two rear ceiling corners. There is no "behind the back" surround effect in an IMAX house. You have big sound in front of you and over the head.

I think the approach Dolby is taking with Atmos is better. But it's more expensive. And it still requires more powerful surround speakers than the usual enclosures that are installed on the walls in most theaters.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
It has nothing to do with impressing people, sight lines, or leg room. Stadium seating was done for "foot print", you pack more into a facility per square foot.

That's not true. Standard sloped theaters can fit in more seats. The row spacing in stadium seated theaters is a little wider. The rows are also typically straight. Both are areas where you lose seats. Our local Carmike 8 theater lost a significant number of seats when it converted its houses to stadium seating. The 2 biggest rooms originally held just over 200 seats; after the conversion they were down to 180.

Some extra space is also lost from ADA required wheelchair seating areas. A standard sloped theater is far more friendly to wheelchairs.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 07-22-2013 11:27 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
In-N-Out is a 100% privately held company. It has zero shares available to the public to purchase.

Sorry for playing the wise-ass, but technically it doesn't matter that it is 100% privately held, it is still a company and it has shareholders. The only difference is, shares are not for sale on the free market.

But let's not split hairs about those details, I think the point has been made and I happen to largely agree with you. And I don't even dare to compare In-N-Out to Wendy's. [Wink]

quote: Bobby Henderson
The problem is IMAX uses only two of these big enclosures for the whole surround field. The speakers are typically stuff up in the two rear ceiling corners. There is no "behind the back" surround effect in an IMAX house. You have big sound in front of you and over the head.

The current (D)IMAX sound system lacks something I would call "finesse" or "sophistication" and it tries to compensate that with volume and impact. It indeed totally lacks a center back speaker and in deep auditoriums (and some of those converted multiplex theaters are still quite deep for something called IMAX), it also has a noticeable gap between front and surround channels.

I even know one Digital IMAX theater that has seats underneath the booth. Those seats are actually located BEHIND the surround speakers. So much for laser-aligned-surround-sound for the people that end up on those seats...

quote: Bobby Henderson
That's not true. Standard sloped theaters can fit in more seats. The row spacing in stadium seated theaters is a little wider. The rows are also typically straight. Both are areas where you lose seats.

I was also wondering about that and the situation might be different from case to case.

Stadium seating, when implemented right from the start in a purpose-built complex can give you some additional useful space underneath the auditorium, which you can use for lobby space, storage, technical rooms, toilets, etc.

The few theaters around here I know of that actually converted from a sloped floor to a slight stadium seating lost seats in the process due to various reasons. Most of those theaters decided to increase legroom and put in more comfortable, wider seats. They didn't implement it to increase the number of seats, but they wanted to improve the customer experience.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-22-2013 01:38 PM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Sorry for playing the wise-ass, but technically it doesn't matter that it is 100% privately held, it is still a company and it has shareholders. The only difference is, shares are not for sale on the free market.

There is still a big difference. The handful of people who own all the shares of In-N-Out Burger have made that business their life's work, some of those owners are in the Snyder family that founded the chain. The have a vested interest in the long term future of the company. The same cannot be said for many people who buy shares in a publicly traded corporation.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
The current (D)IMAX sound system lacks something I would call "finesse" or "sophistication" and it tries to compensate that with volume and impact.

I always chuckle at that "laser aligned" sound thing they put on their trailer. The tone in their auditoriums is more like what I mentioned earlier about rock concerts in basketball arenas. It can get plenty loud, but sort of harsh and muddy.

Generally speaking, it seems like the bigger the room gets the harder it is for the sound system to sound great. That was one of the things that amazed me about the Northpark 1-2 in Dallas. The #1 auditorium was big (it held 1100 seats) and yet it had great tonality. The sound system was very powerful, but it sounded excellent across the entire frequency range. Explosive sound effects on that system could thump the air in your chest and flat out startle you. At the same time music sounded great on that setup as well. I watched The Bridges of Madison County there and remember being impressed how well some of the music material sounded.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
The few theaters around here I know of that actually converted from a sloped floor to a slight stadium seating lost seats in the process due to various reasons.

I don't know how one could convert a standard sloped theater to stadium seated auditoriums without having a net loss in seats. I think the only way one could have a net gain in seat count is by building extra rows of seats right up to touching distance of the screen. Some (myself included) would consider that cheating.

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-22-2013 07:52 PM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
The current (D)IMAX sound system lacks something I would call "finesse" or "sophistication" and it tries to compensate that with volume and impact.

Just about every theatre I go to these days has that same lousy quality. How much of that is the processor and b-chain and how much of that is the digital soundtrack, I couldn't tell you. The last time I heard finesse and sophistication was back in the 70mm mag days with one recent exception: I saw a documentary at the Film Forum in New York recently ("Radio Unnameable" about WBAI radio personality Bob Fass) and the sound was surprisingly spectacular, especially considering that it was a very low budget film. But unlike most recent effects movies, it wasn't made by a director with a big ego who is so insecure that they must blast the sound mix beyond OSHA regulations for factories and beyond the threshold of pain.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 07-23-2013 04:43 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
There is still a big difference. The handful of people who own all the shares of In-N-Out Burger have made that business their life's work, some of those owners are in the Snyder family that founded the chain. The have a vested interest in the long term future of the company. The same cannot be said for many people who buy shares in a publicly traded corporation.

I did get that point:

Publicly traded company == Evil Empire
Private, family owned businesses == Rebellion

Unfortunately, some of those private, family owned businesses choose the path to the Dark side ever so often. Let's just hope the meat at In-N-Out Burger will never ever have to see a freezer from the inside. [Razz]

quote: Bobby Henderson
Generally speaking, it seems like the bigger the room gets the harder it is for the sound system to sound great.

Besides having sufficiently powerful equipment, room treatment is really very important, but in a big room it can be very costly and complicated. I've yet to be in a big room that hasn't some nasty echo, especially noticeable in human speech. As I mentioned before, I've noticed this in rooms that seemed to be sufficiently insulated and even THX certified. I'm not sure what's causing those reflections. Maybe the still remaining flat surfaces like the window(s) in the booth, some trashcans standing around, etc. are sufficient to create noticable echos at the required volume levels. The fact that those rooms are very big, causes what otherwise would be "recognized" as reverberation to be recognized as echo.

quote: Bobby Henderson
That was one of the things that amazed me about the Northpark 1-2 in Dallas. The #1 auditorium was big (it held 1100 seats) and yet it had great tonality. The sound system was very powerful, but it sounded excellent across the entire frequency range. Explosive sound effects on that system could thump the air in your chest and flat out startle you. At the same time music sounded great on that setup as well. I watched The Bridges of Madison County there and remember being impressed how well some of the music material sounded.

You've been raving about that place all over here... Unfortunately, I've never been there and I'm currently out of plutonium for my Delorian. You've made me interrested, but the information available about those theaters is sketchy. Nobody seems to have pictures of how the place looked from the inside...

quote: Martin Brooks
Just about every theatre I go to these days has that same lousy quality.

That's why we really need that new THX-replacement-certification thingy. Anyone? No? [Razz]

quote: Martin Brooks
How much of that is the processor and b-chain and how much of that is the digital soundtrack, I couldn't tell you. The last time I heard finesse and sophistication was back in the 70mm mag days

Sound quality is a very subjective thing. I agree, many soundmixes are rather lackluster and often seem overly compressed, just like commercial music nowadays. But there is still some quality in the air. Did you taste a bit of Dolby Atmos at a decent theater recently?

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-23-2013 05:26 PM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
You've been raving about that place all over here... Unfortunately, I've never been there and I'm currently out of plutonium for my Delorian. You've made me interrested, but the information available about those theaters is sketchy. Nobody seems to have pictures of how the place looked from the inside...

Inside what, exactly? Because in the warehouse there are pictures of the building, inside auditorium 2, the booth, the projector heads, and sound rack. I guess if you're wanting inside the auditorium he's mentioning, yeah that's not up there but I imagine there isn't much to add.

Oh and I heard the people running the Delorean Motor Company have enough original spare parts that they can actually sell you a knew car, though they have used dealers in some of the bigger metropolitan areas.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 07-23-2013 06:03 PM

quote: Chris Slycord
Inside what, exactly? Because in the warehouse there are pictures of the building, inside auditorium 2, the booth, the projector heads, and sound rack. I guess if you're wanting inside the auditorium he's mentioning, yeah that's not up there but I imagine there isn't much to add.

I feel kind of stupid that I've totally missed it [Wink]

I'm looking at the pictures right now and still I'm wondering why those theaters were so special, what did they have what others didn't have?

quote: Chris Slycord
Oh and I heard the people running the Delorean Motor Company have enough original spare parts that they can actually sell you a knew car, though they have used dealers in some of the bigger metropolitan areas.

The car and even the Flux Capacitor is fine, it's just the fuel I need... [Wink]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 07-23-2013 07:26 PM

quote: Chris Slycord
Because in the warehouse there are pictures of the building, inside auditorium 2...

Actually this is auditorium 1:

I think I have seen auditorium 2 photographed somewhere on here or maybe Brad showed me once, but that wasn't the auditorium with the awesome sound system and everything else great that auditorium #1 had.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-23-2013 11:16 PM

Oh; I swore on the warehouse page it said it was #2.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
I'm looking at the pictures right now and still I'm wondering why those theaters were so special, what did they have what others didn't have?

quote: Brad Miller
The sound system itself wasn't anything overspectacular in speaking of equipment. It was all in the tuning of it. Each and every feature had the system tweeked to the movie it was showing. Being only a 2 screener, this was a possibility that no multiplex could ever even hope to do. On occasion I would custom tweek a select auditorium or two at other theaters I have worked at for really big event movies, but that practice pretty much ended when Northpark shut down.

Another way to think about this would be to take the best system that could possibly be put together with today's equipment...sparing no expense. Then hire someone who doesn't truly know what they are doing to B-chain it. The sound would be awful! The reverse is also true in that a good/decent system can be tweeked to sound pretty damned good, if the technician knows what he is doing and isn't afraid to do the job, then listen and make final little adjustments based upon what he hears which the RTA was unable to reveal.

There will undoubtedly be people who will chime in with the same old routine about "the ears are not accurate" and such, but the reputation and tremendous fanbase of that theater speaks for itself.

Though I can't personally add anything; I wasn't in that state when the place was around.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-24-2013 08:39 AM

I can't put enough stress on the factor of sound system maintenance. It's possible to build a huge movie theater auditorium with a proper acoustical design that isn't affected by echo and other problems. It's possible throw in top of the line equipment. But it's all pretty worthless if the theater doesn't bother to properly maintain the system. Getting the system tuned right is a critical part of the formula. Other things, like replacing blown speaker drivers, should be handled immediately rather than put off for months or even years as I've seen some theaters do.

GCC Northpark 1-2 was one of those special theaters where the sound systems were routinely re-tuned. Most multiplex theaters sit at the polar opposite of that situation. They're rarely, if ever re-tuned. I think some theaters get one sound system tweak when the equipment is first installed and then that's pretty much it.

For whatever reason sound systems in movie theaters seem to drift out of proper adjustment. I don't know if it is wear & tear on speaker drivers, amps, etc. or what. Maybe one of the popcorn jockeys sneaks into the booth and farts around with some of the knobs. I've heard some theaters sound very good and then visit the same room months later and be disappointed.

IMHO, the commercial movie theater industry needs to take sound quality a hell of a lot more seriously. The industry on the whole could be doing a far better job. I think they've been skating by for years taking advantage of an uninformed general public. With them upping the ante with these new "digital giant format" auditoriums and charging extra premiums for entry it has made the situation of bad movie theater sound more sickening. They're not really doing the job right with sound in these new premium priced auditoriums. And they're doing pretty much nothing in the standard priced rooms.

Showmanship has to be the top priority for movie theaters. Great projection and sound quality is the cornerstone for showmanship. With new movie theaters I visit I'm under the impression a hell of a lot more money went into the lobby decoration than into the booth.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 07-24-2013 11:48 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
Most multiplex theaters sit at the polar opposite of that situation. They're rarely, if ever re-tuned. I think some theaters get one sound system tweak when the equipment is first installed and then that's pretty much it.

You're assuming that they're tuned correctly to begin with. Most rooms are EQ'd to the line with the RTA and then the tech moves on to the next room since as far as he's concerned, it's absolutely perfect. One frequency may be nearly maxed out and the adjacent frequencies can be nearly dialed down to zero, it doesn't matter to the brilliant tech since the RTA says it's close to "the line". If the room is ever retuned, this same process is used.

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 07-24-2013 11:52 AM

I'm always discouraged when I hear some friends talking about how GREAT things sounded in certain IMAX houses. I mention things like "it's too loud, bright, ear piercing, with no deep bass" and they just say that I don't know what I'm talking about and that it sounded "fine."

This is what folks who know the difference between good and bad sound are competing with and it's likely we'll never win.

AJG

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 07-24-2013 12:29 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
...it had great tonality. The sound system was very powerful, but it sounded excellent across the entire frequency range. Explosive sound effects on that system could thump the air in your chest and flat out startle you. At the same time music sounded great on that setup as well.

You've gone and described what every movie theater auditorium should be, sound-wise.

Customers want this, but few theaters deliver it. It's a mystery to me why it's such a rarity. I understand the reasons that theaters have, I just deny their validity.

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