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Topic: Where do I get a Cyan Soundtrack for test?

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-24-2002 01:05 PM

Whatever is going to happen, I'm sick of hearing about it. If the studios are hell bent on switching to cyan for whatever reason (good or bad), then just do it! Do it now! There has been more than enough warning, so switch over or stop these vauge threats. Pick one or the other, but geez enough is enough. How long has this nonsense been going on???

Shit or get off of the pot.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-24-2002 01:11 PM

NATO and the Studios ARE moving ahead:
http://www.dyetracks.org/press/pr.010902.StudioSupport.html

"16 July 2002
From the National Association of Theatre Owners:
Mary Ann Grasso, Vice-President and Executive Director of NATO confimed that at the recent Spring Board and Committee meeting held in Washington, D.C May 8-10, 2002 the NATO Technology Committee expressed continued support for the conversion to cyan dye track. The Committee suggested to the Board that NATO select a firm date by which NATO member theatres' would be fully equipped with red readers. The NATO Board of Directors recommended by unanimous approval that all theatres be properly equipped with red light readers by July 3rd, 2003."

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-24-2002 02:55 PM

This, the same NATO, that brought you the ELR reel and polyester film? The target number has been 85% conversion before cyan adoption...none of the studios, to my knowlege, has stated they would release cyan prints with 15% of the theatres not capable of playing the tracks.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-24-2002 03:16 PM

The robust ELR reel and case design that was chosen by the InterSociety Committee for the Enhancement of Theatrical Presentation (of which NATO, SMPTE, ACVL, MPAA and ITEA are members) was significantly changed by the vendor chosen by the distributors, to reduce cost. The changes led to the problems with equipment interface and poor durability. Don't blame NATO.

Polyester base film is here to stay. ESTAR base DOES have many advantages over triacetate, especially after the improvements in KODAK VISION Color Print Films, that required an investment of over $200 million by Kodak.

Every technical innovation has advantages and disadvantages compared to the previous technology. You move forward to take advantage of the innovation, and work to address the disadvantages. It's likely that the slightly lower signal-to-noise of cyan dye tracks on red LED readers will be addressed in short order as LED and reader technology improves.

There are always tradeoffs. Many feel nitrate film had a wonderful "look" that hasn't been matched, but that doesn't mean we should return to nitrate film. A monophonic optical track with noise reduction has better signal-to-noise than a stereo track --- would you have us return to mono?

Now, since Brad is sick of hearing about it, let's move on.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 07-24-2002 04:47 PM

I would love to see someone manufacture a small batch of nitrate stock using the best available technology just to see if there is any truth to it. If nothing else it might make a target to shoot for. Think of the awesomely authentic restorations that would be possible--for those equipped to play them safely.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-24-2002 05:59 PM

When I think of all the nitrate film that Kodak made prior to 1950, I'm amazed the factory didn't burn to the ground! Yet, it does show that with proper safety precautions, even nitrate film could be handled safely. All the nitrate base making equipment is long gone, and I suspect the current acetate base making equipment and personnel would not be put at risk to answer curiosity.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-24-2002 07:59 PM

If whoever was responsible for designing those ELRs that New Line and Warner used wasn't such a bonehead, I do think the ELRs would have been in place by all studios by now. Instead of taking their design and giving it to knowledgeable projectionists for constructive criticism, they just manufactured them and sent them out, totally oblivious to those minor things like the reel being way too wide and the lack of a drive pin hole, not to mention the "waffle" flanges that were a dirt magnet (especially with polyester film) and that joke of a latch. All in all, I do wish that the ELR had've been designed properly and had've caught on. It would certainly have been a major improvement across the board.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-24-2002 09:04 PM

I personally find it very amusing that the idea of converting to DLP projection is even being discussed at this time when the industry has not been able to make even minor changes like switching to cyan-dye soundtracks and 6000' shipping reels. This is not to say that all of these are necessarily good ideas, but rather that it seems unlikely that exhibitors who won't spend $1k or less per projector to install LED readers would ever spend $100k per screen for DLP.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-24-2002 09:17 PM

The InterSociety Committee evaluated six different ELR reel/shipper designs. There was quite a bit of practical testing in theatres and exchanges before the final designs were chosen. Bobby Pinkston led the effort. Then a totally different design that had never been submitted for any evaluation was used by Warner Bros. and New Line.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-24-2002 11:21 PM

I don't get it. If all of these industry orgs have gotten together and are convinced of the clear advantages of ELR (and you don't need a rocket scientist to understand what an improvement they would be) and they settled on a design that supposedly was tested and works, then why is it dead in the water, just because two studios opted to use a lesser design? Why did everyone throw their hands up in the air and abandon a good idea, *especially* since it is understood that the problem was with the "bastard" version of the reel/case design and not the approved one? Why not press ahead and just ignore Warner's and New Lines debachal? I thought we were about correcting glitches....not running away from them. That would be akin to the industry abandoning xenon bulbs the first few times they exploded!

Either the organizations involved are not really convinced about the need or usefulness of ELR or these guys are just wusses and not committed to making it work. Maybe we need the old-timers back -- guys like Mike Todd who made Todd-AO work and that was just one guy conjuring up, designing, testing and marketing his idea, which was a helluvalot more involved and complex than some big, goofy-looking film reel!

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-24-2002 11:34 PM

The guy who promoted the use at Warners retired shortly thereafter and
New Line is part of the AOL-Warners group. The design that Bob Pinkston showed at a ITEA convention a few years ago was great and he tested it by doing a dance on top of the reel ( Lord of the Rings or even the Blue Men have nothing to worry about ).
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-24-2002 11:42 PM

I stand corrected. Now I want to see one of these "good" 6K reels!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-25-2002 10:03 AM

Brad: Bobby Pinkston may still have the details, if not the reels.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-25-2002 11:51 AM

The reel Bobby demostrated was not the one that was finally produced by Warners....too many non-technical hands at the end in the production pot.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Kenneth Wuepper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1026
From: Saginaw, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-25-2002 09:29 PM

Mr Kraus said "IR hearing impaired transmitter is going to make a significant impact in terms of heat load and air conditioning that's just silly."

I have no idea of what you are talking about! With regard to air conditioning the LED module in a soundhead. My comment was not silly.. I simply stated that the small high output IR module was inefficient. IR LEDs find their best use in pulse transmission and arrays like the hearing impaired transmitters where high power output is accomplished with multiple LEDs rather than one powerful unit in a small housing.

This takes me back to the thermodynamics lab in college.

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