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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Rectifier Diodes
Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-09-2002 02:28 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One problem with capacitors is that they also have a ampre rating
In otherwords how much current will they be charging and dischargeing over time
Often the smaller caps even though the Voltage and capacity ratings are correct they will have trouble and overhead with current

Also if the rectifier has a filter choke in it I usually move the caps to the input side of the choke and then add a small one on the output to make it a P filter
The small one helps the ignition but the big one being before the choke have ther discharge time constant dampped

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William Phillips
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 117
From: Cardigan, Wales, UK
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-09-2002 02:33 PM      Profile for William Phillips   Author's Homepage   Email William Phillips   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for all the replays,
Has any one out there got one of the IREM AFU external filters, if so are they any good

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Rick Sanjurjo
Film Handler

Posts: 26
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 08-09-2002 05:40 PM      Profile for Rick Sanjurjo   Email Rick Sanjurjo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,
I have seen them go both open and short. The short circuit condition is easy to find, there is usually smoke. The open condition is a little harder the symptoms might include short bulb life and hard to light bulbs. The exact value is dependent on the power supply design. For example a single-phase supply would have higher ripple current and require larger capacitors as compared to a three-phase supply. A supply with a higher no load voltage would require less capacitance than one with a lower no load voltage. Some supplies like the Strong high reactance insert a limiting resistor in series with the caps during ignition so that they can use larger value caps during normal operation (for lower ripple) and still not get excessive inrush at start up. It is a tricky question as to what the correct value for a given supply should be. If you want to check the capacitors most modern digital meters include a capacitance meter. If not you could charge them to a known voltage and discharge them through a known resistor and measure how long that takes and then calculate how long it should take, but that’s kind of a hassle.

Rick

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 08-10-2002 02:43 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One thing I will add that Rick didn't. An open diode will give a symtom of low bulb current (substantially lower, I might add) accompanied with shutter strobing on the screen.

I don't like using capacitor checkers. They don't tell the full story.

Looking back on electronic theory I seem to remember that if a capacitor checker is used to check capacitance and the results are higher than expected, the capacitor is electrically leaking.

Can someone refresh my memory on that?


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-11-2002 03:27 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wrote a procedure to check Irem rectifiers, which I did on a yearly basis (I wish I had that kind of time today!) A person might be able to apply it to other makes.

Several people at Amprobe and Irem's US reps told me that using an AC clamp on amp meter would not be too accurate. Several people would try to use their AC clamp-on meter, since ripple is a form a of AC.

People might take issue with my suggesting to disconnect the AC ground to the 'scope. Battery-operated 'scopes were mostly dream when I wrote this. So, use at your own risk, and let common sense prevail, but I still do it this way today.

Determining the percentage of ripple in
power supplies for short-arc xenon lamphouses.

This procedure also checks for any error in the voltage and/
or ammeter.

Before beginning, verify that the power supply is operating at
or below the AMPERAGE shown on the power supply nameplate.

1. With a small flat head screwdriver, "zero" the volt meter and
ammeter (if installed).

2. Set the oscilloscope to 10 millivolts per division; the time
base to 20 milliseconds per division.
Avoid using "X10" probes.
There are no special triggering requirements, AC or "AUTO"
will work.

Note: Since the oscilloscope will be reading DC, greater
accuracy can be obtained by adjusting the scope's
baseline to the bottom of the screen, rather then to
the center.

3. Place the auto-ignition switch to "MANUAL".

4. Open the lamphouse door and defeat the door interlock safety
switch.

5. Observing proper polarity, connect a calibrated volt meter to
the DC power cables.

6. Power on the lamphouse. The bulb should not ignite while the
auto-ignition switch is in "MANUAL".

7. Compare the voltage reading from each volt meter. Record the
values. Replace the meter in the lamphouse if the values are
more then 15% apart.

8. Remove the power to the lamphouse while the meter is still
connected.

9. While observing the voltage decrease, listen for the RA
relay (inside the rectifier) to drop out. Record this value.
It should be between 30 to 45 volts.

Note: It should take longer then 10 seconds for the meter to
reach zero.

10. Remove the volt meter when the value reaches zero.


11. Power on the lamphouse.
a. Press the "STRIKE" button to ignite the lamp OR:
b. If there is no "STRIKE" button:
Flip the auto-ignition switch to "AUTO", then
immediately return it to "MANUAL" after the bulb is
lit.

The auto-igniter must be disabled. If the bulb should go
out, it can not re-ignite and injure someone
connecting leads or damage test equipment.

12. Connect the oscilloscope across the ammeter shunt.
Record Imax (total peak voltage)
Record Imin (minimum peak voltage)
Calculate ripple and record. The percentage of ripple should
be less then 10%.

Note that the oscilloscope may have to be isolated by plugging
a ground adapter in series with the oscilloscope's power line.
Use caution.

13. Record the lamphouse ammeter value.
Because the ammeter shunt reduces the actual current
value to the lamphouse ammeter by 1/3000, there
will be 3 amps for every 1 millivolt shown on the
oscilloscope. Therefore, the amperage can be calculated
by multiplying Imax, in millivolts, times 3000.
For example:

36 mv * 3000 = 108 amps

Note that this test requires an accurate 150 mv shunt.

14. Compare the readings from the ammeter and the calculated
current. Record the values. Replace the meter in the
lamphouse if the values are more then 15% apart.

15. Return the door safety interlock switch to normal.


The following information should have been recorded:
The date of testing.
The lamphouse model, serial number, and location.
The power supply model and serial number.
The values: Imax; Imin; operating lamphouse voltage; actual
voltage; operating amperage; actual amperage; RA relay drop-
out voltage; percentage of ripple.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-11-2002 03:54 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Or...

Just pitch the IREM altogether and install your favorite other brand and watch the lamp life increase and realize, it was probably the ripple in the beautiful to look at but horrible power IREM rectifier.

Christie rectifiers powering Christie lamps...has got to be the toughest act to beat. To consistantly obtain 2-3 times rated life out of lamps, regardless of size speaks to their construction.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-11-2002 09:24 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,
I have to adamantly disagree with you on the Christie rectifier thing. They are sooooooooooooooooooooooo old fashioned that its almost a joke. There are other brute force rectifiers I'd use over a Christie any day. Man, I've had less problems with Eprad rectifiers than Christies. I do however agree with you on the majority of Irems though. They put out dirty DC,typically 9 to 10% ripple on a new unit, and have enough of their own problems to fill the Titanic. However, Christies are way under heatsinked, use crappy cheapo IR epoxy filled diodes that WILL fail in alot less time than others that use glass sealed type. The crappy red fibreglass board that all the high power connections, in fact all the connections period attach to compresses and allows things to loosen up over time and connections to get hot and burn up. About as good as Kneisley there! I can't begin to tell you how many Christie rectifiers I have done service calls on in 20 years. WAY more than any other single brand indeed. These days switchers are in and provide the best source for a lamp one can get. They are super reliable and don't allow the current to drop during electrical brownouts(within reason). Sure, they have the one downside that they usually cannot be repaired in the field, but it only takes 5 min to change one out, alot less time than it takes to change diodes in a Christie. Gee, on the SLC consoles Christie finally put a fan on the heatsink..... Its about time. They went for years with out them in the H series.

JOhn, Osram use to have a standard .1% accuracy shunt they would send out for investigating lamp failures. Your procedure is very correct except I used a storage scope instead and also measured and calculated inrush current at the same time, using the same shunt. I ahev an ORC ripple and inrush meter that I ahve had for years. Is till use it fairly often and ahve compared it to the standard shunt on one occasion. The amprobe they use is an AC/DC version and it feeds a special circuit in a black box. The calibration of the ORC unit was pretty close to the standard shunt so I always just stuck with the ORC system.

Mark


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-11-2002 09:40 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can disagree all you want and critique the age of the Christie design...it still works best...it will make any lamp last longer.

So basically, what you are saying is to use glass filled diodes and everything will be fine on the diode failure front? Hmm. Seems like a cheap solution to me.

The current Christie standalones all have fans on them and Christie was putting fans on their console units about halfway into the K series.

As to switchers vs Christie...even Cineplex pulled the switchers out for the Christies at the Uptown after the 6th failure...the result, no rectifier failures in years and much improved lamp life.

Mark, you know that newer isn't necessarily better...it isn't an excuse to use something...what switchers bring to the table is size and weight. I do use them for smaller lamps...look at my picture in the picture test thread..there is a Strong switcher sitting nicely between the Kinoton's feet, like it was sized to go there!

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-12-2002 11:35 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Humm, I never had a customer that had a lamp last any longer with a Christie rectifier than a switcher. My experience has been that they last about the same. The switchers have SO many advantages that its almost difficult to think of anything else for mainstream installation. And the quick changeout is a BIG advantage. Yes, on special high power setups they can be problematic but even there have been pretty darn good for me. Anything over a 7kw should see DC from a modified Miller Arc Welder Power Supply anyway. For really large lamps thats the best way to go.

As far as diodes go always get replacements thata re glass filled. Its easy to spot an IR cheapo epoxy filled version. Dull looking blue or green colored fill. Glass filled/sealed diodes have a very shiny appearance to them. My experisnce is that if you use glass filled you almost never ever go back, unless lightening hits.
Mark


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-12-2002 09:10 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The equipment I service is almost all Xetron consoles with IREM power supplies. We usually get 3 times the rated hours on a bulb; often I will (or I'll suggest) they be changed just because there's so many hours on them I think they might blow up. I think IREMs are very reliable. YMMV, but I find airflow to be much more important than the make of power supply.

In our entire chain, we've changed very few diodes. But for some reason, I've had to change 6 within the last two months; At two separate theaters the same thing happened; two went in the same power supply, then one in the house next to it. Each one went a few weeks apart from another. Very strange. At our Miami FL location, the power is always going out, brownouts, etc. but no diodes have blown. In our Trumbull CT location where the power is well regulated, three have gone bad in the last 2 months. So, go figure.

I also see no "logic" in changing out all diodes if just one is bad (unless, as Gordon pointed out, there is a specific reason.) IREMs are convection cooled, so I thought they might be overheating since they are now being placed in an enclosed console. But many older consoles are sill working fine, so I don't know.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 08-12-2002 10:05 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

Perhaps your customers don't see it but I have repeatedly. As to IREM, they consistently rack up the shortest hours with the most ripple.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-12-2002 10:38 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, typically Irems run from 9 to 12% ripple. The inrush specs are usually very good though.
Mark

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Mark Hathaway
Film Handler

Posts: 31
From: Australia
Registered: Nov 2001


 - posted 08-14-2002 04:27 AM      Profile for Mark Hathaway   Email Mark Hathaway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

It would be best to measure ripple current with an oscillscope across the shunt, as even a good multimeter will probably struggle resolving the waveform.


Mark Hathaway
Senior Technician,
Atlab Image and Sound Technology,
Melbourne, Australia

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 08-14-2002 10:51 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is fascinating! I've never had a ripple problem with an IREM, if any rectifier was giving me 9-10% from new it'd be back in it's crate on the way to meet it's maker! The IREMs I service typically give 3% at the outside. I wander if this is another 50/60Hz thing?

Now the Christies.... those seem to be pretty good too, the 12 that are local to me are knocking on in years a bit now, but have been fretty reliable. All recently had new smoothing caps fitted as the ripple was getting a tad high. I had one real spectacular failure on one Christie. Two diodes failesd short, and in turn took out most of the snubber network in smoke and flames fashion. I had to completely remove that rectifier from the console to work on it and rapidly discovered that the Christie is surprisingly heavy for it's size!


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 08-14-2002 06:10 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not totally convinced that ripple plays a large part in determining bulb life. I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced.....
Obviously, if it was like 40%, well sure.

I measured several electrical parameters of IREM rectifiers, ripple being one of them. Now, I gathered this data about 15 years ago, but, at least at that time, Steve was right. The 15 IREM's power supplies I measured had ripple between 9 and 18%, only one was really low. But we didn't have any bulb problems, so as I say, I don't know about bulb life vs. ripple.

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