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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Film, Vinyl, Digital (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Film, Vinyl, Digital
Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 08-20-2002 05:20 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, porn theaters abandoned film about 15 years ago in favor of tape, what's to stop mainstream movies from doing the same?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-20-2002 05:39 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pornographers went to shooting on videotape and distributing tape for a number of reasons, the chief one being there are too few commercial movie theaters willing to book hardcore films. And that has been the case well before "Deep Throat" or "Behind the Green Door" hit movie screens in the 1970's.

Why pay the money to make film prints when there are next to no theaters to show it? Most porn is "direct to video" --made for TV only viewing (where everyone can sneak a peak at that raunchy stuff without risking being seen in public walking into a porn palace with the raincoat crowd).

With porn being a TV-only medium, the use between film and videotape becomes a simple balance of visual style versus budget. It is a lot cheaper to shoot some hardcore crap on a 3CCD MiniDV camera than go rent a bunch of film gear.

I'm not sure about the numbers, but I think the last figure I saw claimed North America had about 30,000 commercial movie theater screens. That is a large, installed market with enough influence to keep directors and cinematographers shooting on film.

Then look at regular broadcast television. Most TV series are shot on film rather than videotaped (particularly the serious dramas and action oriented series). The vast majority of large national TV ad campaigns have their commericals filmed rather than taped. Why? Film just looks better. It doesn't have that dry, pasty 6 o'clock news / soap opera / infomercial look to it.

To address the vinyl LP versus CD analogy about digital videotape versus film, there is a big difference in the analogy. While quality differences between LP and CD are argumentative (I think CD definitely sounds better, but LPs had much better artwork), there is no argument that digital videotape just doesn't capture anywhere near as good a quality image as 35mm film. Video isn't nearly as sharp and it does not have the color character of film either. And over-hyped digital projection systems like DLP carry bareful half the detail of a standard 1080i HDTV image, and far less detail than film.

When digital video systems can up their resolution and improve color handling to a degree to match 35mm film at its best possibilities, then video can rightfully kick film out of commercial theaters. Right now, digital just doesn't meet that challenge. All those R&D guys just have to keep working on it.

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Bernie Anderson Jr
Master Film Handler

Posts: 435
From: Woodbridge, New Jersey
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 08-20-2002 07:04 PM      Profile for Bernie Anderson Jr   Author's Homepage   Email Bernie Anderson Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As a projectionist in a couple different chains, the problem I see that would prevent any kind of change over is the attitude of the company. As it is, these companies feel that people come to visit their concession stand first and oh byt the way let's see a movie. And you can't blame them, this all goes back to the greed in Hollywood. Hollywood has it totally desgined that the exhibitor makes practically no money. With that, the most important thing in a mutliplex is where is the exhibitor going to make his money. The way to do that is cut out projectionist, he's not needed. We have made it too easy to run this stuff; and worry only about the concession stand. Now AMC makes it out that they really care about film presentation with all these new logs and forms to fill out and then there's the watching of the print before a public show to make sure that the concession kid put the print together properly. It's a show. They don't care as long as there is a deposit every night. The fact that these theatres own projectors already has the company feeling no need in paying for something that isn't going to increase their business, especially when the bill is in their hands. And we, who run theatres know that it will be the exhibitor paying for it. As it is we pay for everything now and get nothing for it. In my old GCC booth that is now AMC by the second week of a run that print is scratched. And the attitude of management is, no one complains, it's not a problem. So tell me, even if they lower prices of the DLPs there is NO NEED to go to digital, The only one benefiting from it is the Studios and they no that. and tel lme this how much can they really lower prices for a DLP, really, there's only about 38,000 screens in the country. How can you say that's a mass market. You can't compair the number of CD players sold to that of DLPs installed even IF every theatre convereted over. I can tell you this, that the reason we will be talking about this same thing in 15 years is because theatre owners will not pay for something that won't and will not help their business. The public will still come regardless of the format. Most people think it's a video already. How many of you have had people show up late and ask if you can rewind the tape for them. It's happen to me. Instead of killing the industry even more with a format switch we should be thinking of ways to get people back in the seats. maybe make better films at a lower adimission price?

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 08-20-2002 07:15 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Now AMC makes it out that they really care about film presentation with all these new logs and forms to fill out and then there's the watching of the print before a public show to make sure that the concession kid put the print together properly. It's a show."

Well, not to be a jerk, but if everyone who's supposed to be following these procedures treats the process as a joke, then who's fault is it if their presentation isn't as good as it could be? I mean, at some point the individuals have to take some responsibility for this stuff and treat it seriously instead of a corporate joke. Or maybe I'm just naive.

[Disclaimer: The above observation comes from someone who's never worked in a booth. ]


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-20-2002 08:23 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen the same sort of thing with AMC (I fill in occasionally at an ex-GCC house). The annoying thing about that company is that their official policy statements and printed matter all give the impression that the company actually cares about quality presentation, yet their actions show clearly that they don't. What good are procedures and forms when some poorly trained manager is going to damage a print during the first week of it's run? Arguably, paperwork gets in the way of quality presentation, since it reduces the amount of time that can be devoted to it. The plethora of contradictory and incorrect memos doesn't help, either. In the end, the measure of quality should be the picture and sound in the theatre, not the proper completion of company forms.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 08-20-2002 08:51 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I didn't mean to imply that a bunch of paperwork is going to make a theater perfect. If the personnel are untrained or inexperienced and nobody's trying to fix that, then paperwork probably really is for show. I guess my point though was that individuals can make a difference. But then I'm not in their shoes.


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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-20-2002 09:11 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Much as I liked the idea of AMC -- it's a great company on paper -- I actually quit during a Thursday night (right after build-up/tear-down) because I was fed up with the "don't care" attitude they allowed in management.

I didn't mind the paperwork and the corporate statements. I took them seriously and I thought they were a good thing; and there were a few others at that location who believed in the AMC Vision and Mission Statement. Unfortunately, I think we were in the minority. Our cinema was an 8-plex and I think they keep it open because it is a good training theatre for managers. We saw them come in green and leave as "experts." The point is that we weren't one of the gigaplexes where everyone is a number. We were small enough where the employees were very much a family...and we knew quite a number of our patrons, too.

Having actually been there, I wouldn't blame the employees for regarding policies as "corporate jokes" because the management is allowed to override those well-intentioned policies. I was there and I saw it day in/day out.

It's a sad statement when an operation runs most smoothly when the manager isn't around.

They sure did chase that APSH*...are they still doing that?

~Manny (the only one you need.)

*APSH = "Attendance Per Staff Hour." Theoretically, an AMC Theatre is most efficient when there is 1 staff hour for every 19 guests. Something like that.


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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-20-2002 09:18 PM      Profile for Martin Brooks   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Brooks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll admit that this is a little off-topic, but since you maintain that audio CDs were only succesful because the record distributors changed their return policies on vinyl, I felt I had to comment:

While I will agree that there is a perception in the marketplace that audio CDs are too expensive, the economic fact is that they are cheaper than vinyl was, if you calculate inflation.

I also don't buy your argument that the only reason audio CDs sold was because of the change in return policies on vinyl. I think that it is much more likely that when the record companies knew that vinyl wasn't selling anymore, they declared the vinyl versions out-of-print, which automatically made them non-returnable after a particular time period, usually several months.

Also, it is unrealistic to calculate that the price of CDs should be cheaper than vinyl solely because of manufacturing costs. Artist's advances and marketing costs have skyrocketed since the introduction of CDs. The need to produce million dollar videos for MTV has also played a large role in increasing costs.

Around 1964, a typical pop mono LP listed for $3.99 and a pop stereo LP listed for $4.99 and was generally sold at discount for $3.66. When the industry moved to single inventory in 1965, album prices moved to $4.99/$3.66. Based on the inflation rate, CDs should now list for about $27.15 and sell for about $19.91 to be equivalent to the 1965 price of vinyl. At J&R in New York, new releases generally sell for $12 to $14 and midline CDs sell for $7-$11. Personally, I think that being able to buy Dylan's double-LP Blonde on Blonde or Miles Davis' Kind of Blue for $7 on CD is an amazing value. (That's not to say that the record companies aren't repulsive for lots of other reasons.)

Concerning digital cinema, while this might be heresy on this Board, I have to admit that while I was prepared to really hate it, in the few instances that I've seen it, I was surprisingly impressed. It definitely looked better in terms of image steadiness and screen brightness than most neighborhood theatres in my area.

Unfortunately, most moviegoers don't have the slightest inkling what makes for good presentation and unless the film stops, they don't complain. I have stormed out of theatres complaining about screen channels missing, no audio in the surrounds, hum, incredible distortion, the digital processor doing some really strange things, dimness, and out-of-focus images. I have always been alone.

I have been in NYC theatres where the audience has booed when the Dolby, DTS or SDDS trailers played and it wasn't because the trailer wasn't their format of choice. From the audience perspective, it was silly and not relevant. And the average moviegoer has no idea whether a film is playing in 1.85 or 2.39. I saw Metropolis today and I would hope the audience noticed that it looked different than modern film dimensions, since it played in 1.33 (or maybe 1.37), but who knows?

As DLP technology moves more into the consumer market for computer presentation, costs will drop. And I think eventually, when the distributors see economic advantages to digital projection, they will have to co-fund the conversion. I don't think it's going to happen tomorrow. But I think almost any theatre that went into digital sound within the first three years of introduction will have digital presentation within ten years (although probably still not exclusively.)

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-20-2002 09:19 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I should add here that I'm not blaming the theatre managers for AMC's problems. I'm blaming the corporate structure that forced them into the position of having to perform tasks for which they have not been properly trained. This is completely unfair to everyone involved: to the managers (who are being set up to fail), to the customers (who may be subjected to poor quality presentation), and to the experienced employees who are unable to do their job as well as possible due to the need to fix mistakes made by others.

Many of AMC's polices are well intentioned, but, as I said above, they are undermined by the company's overall lack of concern for presentation quality (or at least their unwillingness to provide the environment necessary for quality presentation).

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 08-20-2002 09:24 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Martin,

I do lurk at various DVD forums a lot and could not fail to notice the nice things kids say about digital cinema. Several had said that it's about time Hollywood had come out with a system that "blows film away". Are they sincere or were they brainwashed by Uncle Georgie when he fed them a lot of BS about how superior digital cinema is compared to film when he gave them a second "BS" dose of "STAR WARS spiked with digital videoagraphy. To these kids, Georgie boy could not do anything wrong eccept Jar Jar Binks. How sad!

-Claude


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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 08-20-2002 09:47 PM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I complain a lot about digial cinema, because I think current systems aren't good enough. It really wouldn't bother me that much if a digital system were to become available that actually matched or exceeded film in terms of contrast, color, and resolution.

But the current systems are a joke, and I am not the only person who thinks so. I work at a rather prominent Silicon Valley company, and heard comments from some of my coworkers who saw Star Wars Episode II in DLP. You would think a bunch of tech-savvy engineers would be very hip on digital cinema, but after they actually saw it, they were stunned to find that it looked scarcely better than an average conference room LCD projector -- visible pixels and poor contrast!

If there were a digital cinema system available with 4K resolution, a 10,000:1 contrast range, and a color gamut as good or better than a dye-transfer print, I would say that would be fine. I would miss film, but I could live with it. Today's systems do not even come close to that ideal, and that's why I complain.

I know digital will replace film someday, but I don't want it to be before it's ready.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-20-2002 09:47 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Scott. He said it better than I could. (I'm on medication.)

Something else: AMC certainly provided all of the tools you could want. From a purely mechanical standpoint, everything worked and was well maintained. There was nothing lacking from an equipment standpoint. I will always admit that.

Too bad the equipment alone was not enough to guarantee good presentation.

This was where I started to feel that maybe unions weren't as evil as I once thought they were. The idea of letting "anyone" run the booth was nuts.


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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 08-20-2002 10:11 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps Martin might think that I am too critical about digital cinema especially since I have not yet seen a movie projected digitally in a theatre but like I had said many times, my opinion is based on comments made by many cinema techinicians whose opinion I trust. These are the technicians who want to see digital cinema succeed but feel that that it has not yet been fully perfected at the present time because the picture quality does not even come close to film but they all agree that it will become a reality one day. That is good enough for me. You had mentioned that people had booed when they saw a digital sound trailer but the public sould not fault Dolby Laboratory, DTS nor Sony. The use of film should also not be faulted. The blame for poor film presentation should go to any theatre management who feels that as long as there is a picture on the screen and there is sound, it is good enough. I have loved movies ever since I was six years old and I do know that there is nothing wrong with film because I think it is beautiful, especially 70mm. The only thing wrong is the way they are shown. I have always gone out of the way to find theatres that will impress me with their presentation. Except for that one incident last week, I consider the Waikiki Twin in Honolulu tops along with the Ward Stadium 16. Here in Hawaii there are also theatres that are not very good and I always stay away from them. I saw people standing and watching on dvd "LORD OF THE RINGS" on a $5,000.00 plasma system in a store that sells high tech systems but the picture quality was terrible because the color was much too cold (Cyan) ! The reason this picture looked like this was because who ever set up the system did not know any better. The same thing can happen with a digital cinema presentation operated by a kid working for minimum wage one day because in my opinion, home video and the theatrical digital system is very similar.

-Claude


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Bernie Anderson Jr
Master Film Handler

Posts: 435
From: Woodbridge, New Jersey
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 08-20-2002 11:30 PM      Profile for Bernie Anderson Jr   Author's Homepage   Email Bernie Anderson Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't you all find it a little bit funny that AMC dropped out of NATO national mostly because of NATOs stance on Digital Projection?

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Bernie Anderson Jr
Master Film Handler

Posts: 435
From: Woodbridge, New Jersey
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 08-20-2002 11:39 PM      Profile for Bernie Anderson Jr   Author's Homepage   Email Bernie Anderson Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This was a first, I had a tech in the other day to replace a solar cell wire because oil got to it, and I asked him about if they're starting to send the techs in his company to workshops/classes, whatever to learn digital. He said and I quote, "that it would take at least ten years before anything is done and by that time they hope it's a dead issue that's forgoten about." I thought that was a bold statement and one of the first of it's kind. Because face it, if you are a projectionist that works as a projectionist for a living, and there are some IA brothers out there that still do, the last thing you want is digital, you are definately out of a job. No negotiations no nothing. As it is look what's happened in Boston with Loews. It's hard enough to keep our jobs. I don't understand projectionist that want this.

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