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Author Topic: Checking Dolby Level
Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-10-2002 09:23 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the beginning there were several bad batchs of LEDs in circulation and they tended to require far more frequent adjustment

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 10-10-2002 03:51 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am not sure whether the slight increase in center channel level that you see when you switch from mono to A-type or SR is caused by the NR (some frequencies are boosted during playback, some are attenuated) or maybe by the matrix decoder which adds the two channels. Theoretically, this should result in 3dB level increase. Of course, the mono format is also derived by adding the two channels, but I think with this format the level increase should be corrected to 0dB.
Michael

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-11-2002 09:02 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I did some checking on my fabulous CP50 running Dolbytone. Switching between MONO and other sources does yield a teeny tiny difference. However switching between MONO and NON-SYNC yields no difference whatsoever. So I just leave it in NON-SYNC so I don't have to listen to the damn tone. It also permits me to check the level when customers are in the auditorium if I need to without disturbing their delicate little ears.


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-12-2002 10:30 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As Steve Guttag indicated, the important thing is to turn the NR off when setting Dolby tone. Otherwise you will get an error of about 1dB due to the subtractive feedback in the NR circuit. This is because in most Dolby processors the LED meter is affected by the NR subtraction. So selecting Mono (Format 01) in Dolby processors turns the NR subtraction off.

A 1dB error might not seem like much but it can be enough to cause slight audible mistracking, particularly with A-type, which is less tolerant of errors than SR.

(Note that with Panastereo processors the LED meter is independent of the NR subtraction so any format can be selected when setting Dolby tone. A more sensible approach wouldn't you agree?)

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-12-2002 10:36 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray, how would you recommend going about finding a properly calibrated Dolby tone loop? I have found the Dolby loops vary pretty bad from batch to batch. Indeed A is FAR more sensitive to mistracking.


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-12-2002 12:19 PM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, you will no doubt recall the discussion on this forum a little while back about the wide variations in calibration of test films in general. This is a serious problem, particularly for manufacturers of sound related equipment and is something we have been looking at quite closely in recent times. Test films can vary in a number of crucial parameters including amplitude, lateral position, azimuth and frequency response.

Whilst we have certainly come up with a method of verifying the lateral position of the soundtrack (we bought an expensive measurement microscope and compare our test films to the relevant SMPTE standards), we have not yet determined a reliable and highly accurate way to verify such things as level and frequency response characteristics. But we are exploring several ways of doing this.

In the meantime I would suggest the following:

For Cat69T Dolby tone if you have several batches of NEW (unworn) stock which disagree with each other, choose the batch with the lowest output level and use it as your reference. It is better to err on the side of setting your preamp gain too high than too low for several reasons. Too low a setting may cause pumping of low level dialogue particularly with Dolby A films, whereas setting the gain too high will make things sound a bit brighter, the latter being less objectionable than the former. Secondly, film prints themselves will vary in calibration from one to the next so once again, erring on the high gain side will give less objectionable errors.

For cat69P we have found that the most recent (pale pink coloured) stock has the flattest response. The dark pink stuff has a severe roll off in the 16kHz - 20kHz region and the old B&W stock is not a whole lot better (at least not using red LED readers).

For cat97 (left/right) the important thing is lateral alignment and you can compare your stock by carefully overlaying it with some BT-35. Cat 97 has two alternate burst sine wave signals printed as a negative soundtrack running down the centre of each track, wheras BT-35 has two square wave signals runing down the outer edges of the soundtrack area. Using a magnifier you can check that the outer edges of the Cat97 waveforms are both exacty the same distance from the inner edges of the BT-35 square waves. Be careful to accurately align the edges of the two films on the soundtrack side.

That is the best I can offer at this stage, but we are working on it. Maybe someone from Dolby can offer something more conclusive as they make the stuff!

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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Ken McFall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 615
From: Haringey, London.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-12-2002 02:38 PM      Profile for Ken McFall   Email Ken McFall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So after all of the posting's and very expert opinion.... have we reached a workable conclusion?

The indecison is driving me to drink!

Where's the Gin


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-12-2002 03:00 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I listen to the tone. I want to make sure that's what I hear, and not a bunch of other crap such as frameline clip, or sprocket hole scanning. Unless you have an oscilloscope, the only true way is to listen, at least to make sure the Dolby Tone is what you are calibrating.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-12-2002 03:38 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you are hearng sprockect holes then you will hear that when running ANYTHING If that's the case, then it's time to run the buzz track before you do Dolby Tone.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-12-2002 04:15 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's why I suggested listening.....

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-12-2002 10:57 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray, at one point I got a tone loop that I *think* Ultra Stereo made. When I compared it to many of my Dolby tone loops I found out that the Ultra appeared to be dead on, while the Dolby loops were recorded WAY too low. End result, when I would force-default the processor level set with the Ultra loop, the digital to analog conversion appeared to keep the same volume level. When I did that on a processor set from the Dolby loop, the analog was way too loud!!! Problem is I think I accidentally left that Ultra loop at a theater I was servicing as I can't find it.

Playing analog A prints also has a horrendous amount of distortion in the audio when the actual Dolby loops are used. The level meters will pin themselves during program material. I am hoping that I just got a bad batch, but even if that is the case that really blows.

Our pal Steve Guttag has devised some way of verifying Dolby tone, but he hasn't shared it yet. Steve?


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-12-2002 11:28 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ultras Pink noise was also the best for high freq response as well

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-13-2002 03:17 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, I would suspect that your Dolby tone loops must have been faulty, not just out of calibration, to cause such a large deviation, or else there was some other factor at play. The Dolby tone sine wave (which incidentally is 850Hz) should (theoretically) occupy exactly 50% of the maxium available track width for each track. If you consider for example that a reduction in the width of 10% of the Dolby tone sine wave will result in a loss of level of just 0.9dB, it would take a fairly large error to cause such an obvious difference as you have experienced.

It is possible to measure the peak to peak excursion of the Dolby tone sine wave with a microscope to verify that it occupies the correct track width for a 50% modulated signal, but this is complicated by the fact that the level of the tone could vary quite significantly along a short section of film and yet still average out to give a correct reading on a meter.

If the Ultra 50% tone is considered to be more accurate, maybe Clint can let us know how they verify that their stock is "on the money".

Of course, any consistant difference between Dolby's and Ultra's 50% levels may come down to one company's definition of 100% modulation vs the other's. The maximum track width "available" per track for SVA prints is set down in the SMPTE standards. However I seem to recall that the standards are not specific on whether you should consider 100% modulation to be the entire available track width, or something a little less to allow say, for sideways weave. I also seem to recall that Dolby uses something less (like maybe 90%), but I do not recall exactly what that something is. Where is Steve Guttag when you need him? This is one of the problems when individual companies are permitted to set their own standards.


------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-13-2002 03:21 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
BTW the "posted" time above my posts usually states some time in the wee hours of the morning, as above. In case anyone thinks I am some kind of insomniac with nothing better to do than sit on the Internet all night, it is 7.00pm on a Sunday evening in this part of the world.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-13-2002 10:45 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Isn't the printed density of the image going to be a factor, even with VA? Surely an image with blacker blacks is going to result in more output than one whose blacks are less dense. So microscopic examination of the size of the track may be only one factor.

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