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Author Topic: 2-Proj. automation
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-12-2002 09:23 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
With there already being several choices for automated 2 projector changeover, I can't see it being worth the R&D for Strong to devise an upgrade. That money would be MUCH better spent adding other features to the automations, such as start cue, remote fader and so forth. The money invested I doubt would pay off in the end with the amount of actual sales. Almost everything these days are platter driven.


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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 11-13-2002 06:07 AM      Profile for Bernard Tonks   Email Bernard Tonks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pete wrote,
quote:
Cinemation.
Don't know if the current unit that goes by the name is capable of two projector though.

I found out from Bernard Bentley, that the last Cinemation series that had changeover facility between two projectors was the Cinemation 2000. Two were installed in Empire 1 & 2 Leicester Square, London, and hundreds were installed in the USA by RCA.

All the later Cinemation series have been for single projector operation in conjunction with platter systems, as is the current 2005.



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Ken McFall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 615
From: Haringey, London.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 11-13-2002 07:57 AM      Profile for Ken McFall   Email Ken McFall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To be honest, is it really worth the effort and money?

If you're doing change overs then you have a projectionist to hand.
It's not the most difficult thing to learn so why automate it.

Up until a few years ago the Cinecenta, now Odeon Panton street, was changeover in four screens with FP20's dual manning. The change overs were automated using Philips own change over module.
The boxes were very small, one on each level and there was just enough room for four projectors, 4 westinghouse rectifiers and a rewind bench in each box. The lamphouses were the early AEI/BTH Xenon using 2k three electrode lamps. Talk about sweat shop.

Change overs should be done on a one to one basis. One man per show... encourage automation and I can see one man, or is it person now-a-days, running a mixture of long run and change overs.

If you want to run change overs then man the box properly. Having manned the box properly, if you want to make their life easier then by all means automate the change overs.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-13-2002 08:19 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone make a really _simple_ automation system that can handle changoevers? The CA21 seems like total overkill for most venues, especially since most changeover houses are older single-screens where many functions (e.g. lights, curtain, etc.) may be set up in ways which cannot easily be interfaced with an automation system, anyway, so many of the CA21's functions wouldn't be useful anyway.

The application that I could see for this would be in home theatres (where the projectionist is also the audience) and in (ugh) manager-operated theatres. "Showplace" single-screen houses and screening rooms have real, live operators, of course, and most of the other changeover houses are older singles where there will be a projectionist in the booth anyway and management doesn't see any need to spend money on automation.

For what it's worth, the vast majority of places where I have worked are changeover houses, but none have automation. I'd like to see how that type of setup works, but I can't see it being a huge market, either.


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-13-2002 08:36 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The application I see is for either mixed platter/changeover or a multiplex changeover.

Lets say you are running a 12-plex with two screens running screenings. You would want them running automated changeover so the operator can tend to the rest of the booth.

I don't see much of an application of a single screen automated changeover unless you are a mom-n-pop single where the projectionist is the manager and the ticket seller and popcorn seller......but those are few and far between.

As to simple, Scott, Kelmar has that one...the integrator can, with very little effort, be used on the Series IV automation and (we will find out soon) the older AM-3 automations. It basically keeps the outgoing automation from mucking around with the sound and lights at the end of the show. The changeover cue goes to it and it gets the incoming automation to inititiate the changeover and blocks the outgoing automation.

Steve

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 11-13-2002 01:45 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I don't see much of an application of a single screen automated changeover unless you are a mom-n-pop single where the projectionist is the manager and the ticket seller and popcorn seller......but those are few and far between.

I worked at a twin (with c/o's) where I ran Monday & Wednesday nights by myself for a few years, you learn to run fast.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 11-13-2002 08:57 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wouldn't the application primarily be for big (e.g. 6000') reels?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-13-2002 09:34 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Primarily yes, but as I was discussing with the infamous Mr. Guttag just last week, there are a few places around town that do a lot of screenings and it would be a big help to have 2 projectors in one or two of the auditoriums. Granted most of the time only one would be used off of a platter, but for screenings it would come in very handy. It would also serve as an excellent "backup" for the large auditorium, should there be a projector or lamp issue.

As an example, let's say there are 2 trade screenings to be ran at 10am. Both reels 1 and 2 could be threaded up and the shows started. All it takes for an automated changeover is a tiny cue at the end of each reel. So big deal, that's no problem. I would never run a print if I did not check to make sure that things were in order anyway, so that would require winding the print. Then as each reel finishes, the cue could be removed before packing it back into the cans. Meanwhile, each screen can run for a good half hour without operator intervention, without buildup and without even having to worry if the projectionist misses a changeover.

For a scenario like this, 6000' reels would not be of any use. 2000' reel changeovers and a platter would suffice for everything.


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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 11-15-2002 04:55 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If any of you good folk in the US would like to try an automation that does two-projector control out-of-the-box AND you have the where-with-all to install it, just send me an e-mail. We would be happy to send you a unit to try. The Panalogic CA2000 can be as simple or as complex as the operator wants it to be. Both Pennywise and Panalogic come from Australia where relay-logic based automation systems fell out of favour a quarter of a century ago. I still can't believe that most US cinemas still use them in this, the century of technology. I guess this is one area in the US where the fallout from the space program has been innocuous.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 11-15-2002 07:54 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps because so much of that fallout actually came down on you down under!

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 11-17-2002 04:40 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Judging by the standard of cinema automations that come out of Australia vs those produced by rest of the world, I would say you are absolutely right Steve.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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Ken McFall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 615
From: Haringey, London.
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 12-14-2002 03:22 PM      Profile for Ken McFall   Email Ken McFall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Had my thinking head on today... hurts a bit should use it more.I've come up with a very simple solution to getting a TA10 to do change overs 'WITHOUT' crippling it in 'ANY' way and using only four relays! It's much simpler than my original suggestion....

You need a pulsed relay that will change state when pulsed and stay in the changed state. This will select which projector is being run on automation.

You also need three other timer relays, one to pulse the projector selection relay, one to perform the timed run in of the incoming projector and the third to pulse the change over shutter.

You would use a spare 'cue' to activate the three timer relays.

Relay One bridges the projector selector switch so that the idle projector starts running. This relay would be set for a suitable time to allow the out going projector to continue running for a few seconds after the actual change over. Maybe 12 seconds.

Relay Two would pulse the change over shutters at the correct moment, about seven seconds. Exact time to be determined when installed.

Relay Three would 'Pulse' the projector selection relay after about two seconds. This way when Relay One drops out the newly selected projector would continue running and the original projector would stop. A manual push button could be included to allow selection of which projector to start the show on, an indicator led would indicate the selected projector.

The actual times would be determined when installed... you could let the outgoing projector run for longer if needed by setting Relay One to a longer delay.. 7 seconds for the run down and 5 for over run so set for a delay of 12 seconds.

As there would be no 'effective' pressing of the start or stop button the automation is unaware of the change of projector but retains 'FULL' automation functions on all of its events.

All of this could easily be made to fit a small circuit board with ic's rather than timer relays.

Hope this is of interest to anyone, maybe even Component Engineering [Smile]

A simple add on like this would expand their market for the TA10.

Regards.

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