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Author Topic: The why, how and because of film work... Mathew Molloy Master Film Handler Posts: 357 From: The Santa Cruz Mountains Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-02-2003 11:06 PM                     In regards to Andy's comment about receiving prints with long lengths of cue tape... There are some automations out there that require a certain length of tape along the inboard and outboard edges. I worked with one a few years back that needed exactly 4 1/2 inches. If it was too long it would cause the automation to blow a fuse, too short and half the time it wouldn't sense it. The automation where I currently work uses this type but I only need a couple inches. One thing about these type is that the cues are prone to wear and need replacing often.(Of course, those cues should be removed and you may never have known about that type of automation.) I'm sure I'm not the only one who's come across what appears to be copper changeover tape. That stuff does not come off (well, not easily). Ever see prints come in with chunks missing from the beginning of the credits? I'll bet ya that it's people cutting that stuff out rather than trying to remove it. I've found that in this business there are so many types of systems that something might seem really stupid or goofy but there's usually a good reason behind it. I trained on platters and learned changeovers a few years later. Therefore I never understood why we'd receive prints that had obviously been run but the tail of three and the head of four weren't cut but the rest had been. (Ahh, 6 k's.) I worked with this idiot popcorn-jockey once who had been a projectionist at another theatre. He told me that it would piss him off that reels would come in tails-out and he thought it was being done by the previous theatre to make his life more difficult. He thought that he was getting back at them by shipping the prints out without leaders attached. What an idiot.  |  IP: Logged Peter Schoell Film Handler Posts: 47 From: Paynesville, MN, USA Registered: Jul 2001 posted 01-02-2003 11:15 PM                     Too many times I've gotten prints without heads or tails attached, just coiled or balled up in the cans. If I can't find an ID frame I have no way of telling what goes with what. I've received prints that were torn torn down with the "fill the reel, then cut" method. When I get prints without ID frames it's just a crap shoot as to whether the movie is in tthe right order or not. Since I've also gotten prints that were intentionaly sabotoged, I'm always leary when I can't reference to the head and tail. In further defense of ID frames I can't imagine that anyone but the most anal-retentive is going to notice the loss of 2/24 of a second, particularly when it comes at a scene change. I remember way back when while watching movies on TV, when I saw the reel change marks on the screen, I knew a commercial was coming which was also a pause in the story. Hollywood does have a solution to all these problems...digital projection. That will elimanate all these problems and alot of theatres too, but what the heck per-capita profits will be up.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-02-2003 11:25 PM                     Brad, you haven't seen these buttholes in action up here. It sounds like some came from Peter's area. Some don't know the difference between reel 3 and reel 4 if it had teeth and bit them in the butt!  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-03-2003 12:00 AM                     There seems to be a point missing in the ID frame advocates... You CAN tell which leaders go with which reel based soley on appearance without an ID frame. So all the various comments about a "crap shoot" without ID-frames is plain wrong...just open your eyes and look. As to the anal-retentive comment...I agree nobody is going to miss the 1/12 of a second of picture missing but some can tell that the sound is out of sync by 1/12 of a second for nearly 1-second. If you leave two-frames you have made the sync error 1/6 of a second which geometrically will cue off more people about the sync. It makes the reel-change progressively more noticable. This progresses as one increases the ID frames left behind. The other arguement takes on the stance...our operators are incompetent so please degrade your FIRST-RUN show so I have piece of mind on my sub-run since I pay for lesser people. That just isn't a valid arguement in my book at all. So with the 1/12 second loss (one frame at each end) we are within 2 of a frames...depending on your threading and the size of your theatre and where you sit in the theatre...it may or may not be noticable so that is not very visible to the audience at all. Brad's only ID the head of the film reduces the time to 1/24 which certainly improves the situation and has No down side...you've IDed the reel. Steve  |  IP: Logged James R. Hammonds, Jr Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 931 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-03-2003 12:31 AM                     Maybe in the tips section we should have "Identifying proper heads and tails without ID frames 101" with pictures so everyone can see how it works. I've only built up one used print that had no ID frames, and the only way I knew they were right were because the soundtracks matched. That and I knew where it came from.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 01:39 AM                     Actually, Steve has managed to phrase my comments into words much better than I could. His comments are fair to both sides of the argument. James, believe me that has been on the "to do" list for some time now. I just have to figure out a way to translate it so it is understandable for the web. (I think I've figured out a way, but at this point my days are booked and I won't have any spare time for at least a few weeks. We'll see how it goes.)  |  IP: Logged Jacob Huber Expert Film Handler Posts: 172 From: Evansville, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-03-2003 01:54 AM                     I've had to use the following method to identify reels even with an ID frame on the leader: We had two prints of Ice Age and one was severely damaged from the lab (or maybe we did it, I didn't build it up). The problem was that whomever built it up forgot to right the print number on the tape on the tail, so we didn't know which one was which to breakdown into the right can. I found the heads for the last reel (leaders where in the right cans), and had to match up which print was which by the numbers on the SDDS-track area which identify the roll from which it was cut. Just match up the numbers on the leader with the numbers on the reel, and you're in business. I'm assuming that this method could also be used for reel # identification.  |  IP: Logged Alex Grasic Film Handler Posts: 90 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: Jul 2002 posted 01-03-2003 03:40 AM                     Brad, your idea of "cutting one ID frame on the head". Would it not be more logical to cut the one frame from the tail rather than the head though? I mean, scene end, everything's wrapped up, you're not losing much but on a reel change, you could cut into dialogue and although I don't understand Steve's point to much...yet...would it not help make the situation a bit better?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 03:59 AM                     I say head because: *The majority of prints are shipped "heads out". When breaking down from a platter, the reels are "heads out". Reel to reel houses using large reels will generally break down the movie back to shipping reels right after it's last run, also ending up "heads out". About the only time film is shipped "tails out" is at changeover theaters running 2000' reels, which is rare. (Yes I intentionally did not mention brand new prints from the lab, as this whole issue is not an issue at that point.) *If this practice ever became commonplace, there will still be theaters buying crappy tape. A lot of the tape out there is so nasty that the next operator has no choice but to whack off another frame. I would rather see this at the beginning of the reels, rather than at the end. The odds are greater that interruption at the head will be less of an interruption in continuity (just watch for this the next several movies you screen). Also, this will preserve the changeover timing for 2 projector booths.  |  IP: Logged Alex Grasic Film Handler Posts: 90 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: Jul 2002 posted 01-03-2003 04:19 AM                     FYI, Theatres Act Ontario Ontario Theatres Act (Sept 18, 2002)  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-03-2003 11:16 AM                    Traditionally films have been edited for changeover operation and it is simply impossible to show every frame while running reel to reel. There is always an overlap of a few frames at each end. Most films are still cut with this in mind as many of the most important screenings a film will ever have (studio execs, ratings board, critics) will run reel to reel. In this case the loss of a single frame at each end represents no loss at all. However it is also true that given the overwhelming use of platters films are being cut tighter than ever. There should still be allowance for some loss of a few frames. If one standard (editing leaving plenty of slop for changeover) is being replaced with another borne of platter operation (editing with tight reel breaks) then it's worth pointing out that the new standard still must allow for loss of a frame or two, whether for the safety and comfort of ID frames, the reality of having to deal with tape residue, etc. (Brad, doesn't your ultrasonic splicer cost a pair of frames with each use?) Sure, there are some badly edited films that don't even allow for that much but that is exactly what those are: Badly edited, generally by people who have no knowledge of how film works. I'm not sure how far it is necessary to go to accomodate them. As others have said it's almost always possible to determine reel ID, whether the look of the film, the sound pull-up, ID info from the depot etc. The danger comes when one doesn't realize that a situation even exists. The ID frame earns its keep because of its glaring visibility as an indicator of error. Note that the idea of printing a duplicate frame in the leader to positively ID the reel is a great one but until this can be done inexpensively (like maybe when all films go through a digital intermediate stage) a more realistic solution is to have the editors simply leave an extra couple of frames at the beginning and end of each reel than they would choose to if they were editing for a single unbroken strand. I would submit that in the vast majority of cases, they already are.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-03-2003 11:29 AM                     Steve, It is certainly possible to show every frame whilst running a changeover show. This is true for both automated and manual changeovers. One thing I hate about showing "previously enjoyed" films is that on changeover, you will see the picture rise up on the outgoing reel and come back down on the incoming reel....just like there was a single splice there. I have been known to alter my thread up or start time to ensure this is just a single hop. Steve  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-03-2003 11:28 PM                    I invite you to demonstrate your technique the next time I'm in DC, Steve.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-03-2003 11:32 PM                     Steve, this is yet another reason why I do not leave ID frames on the leaders. It would only be 3 perfs of it. On breakdown though, there is no loss, so the prints go back missing the last black frame of the head leader and the first black frame of the tail leader. Big deal. That is a far worse offense than someone chopping off an ID frame. Get yourself a couple of reels of uncut film. Your local depot may be able to arrange for you to have a couple of reject reels from some random movie. Place a nice big "/" across the last frame on the outgoing reel and place a nice big "\" across the first frame on the incoming reel. Now practice. When you see an "X" on changeovers, you are now worthy of calling yourself a Guttag.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-04-2003 10:13 AM                    I'm not saying it's impossible to show every frame. It is certainly not the norm.  |  IP: Logged

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