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Author Topic: The why, how and because of film work... John Hazelton Film Handler Posts: 42 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 01-09-2003 01:02 PM                        Brad, I wasn't intending to be sarcastic. Based on the dismissive reply to my post, that really did seem to be your argument. I always intend to discuss things in a rational way. I can understand if you've had to argue this issue with others many times in the past, and are tired of it. I'm interested in getting other points of view, and I'm not dogmatic about my beliefs. I also tried to explain how I misunderstood the post that I quoted, no sarcasm intended. You make some excellent points, but I disagree with your statement that "it ALWAYS works." I gave an example in which I was sent a print that had the leaders from a different print of the same title. If it were missing a few frames, the sound tracks wouldn't match, the edge codes (if it has any) wouldn't match, the edge striping wouldn't match, nor would the edge shine match. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but I have had it happen. I just pulled a couple of reels here in the booth to check edge codes, and there's nothing useful on "Cabaret" or "Kiki's Delivery Service." Neither one has unique edge striping, either. Accept my apologies for being unclear in my intent above. I always want to promote reasonable discussion about all topics.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-09-2003 01:03 PM                        jhawk wrote: "Not everyone uses Kodak. In particular, Fuji doesn't have a useful edgeprint that varies from reel to reel." Kodak has invested tens of millions of dollars in improving its worldwide motion-picture finishing operations (slitting and perforating), greatly improving quality (e.g. much less dirt). Part of that investment was the very useful magenta programmable edgeprinting technology.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-09-2003 07:33 PM                     quote: "I gave an example in which I was sent a print that had the leaders from a different print of the same title." I missed that and in that rare circumstance, yes you could only rely on the optical wav soundtrack to go by. I do maintain that even in that worst case senario it could be assembled virtually positively, but on that weird senario yes you would be correct. My apologies for not understanding your post. (Must get more sleep.) [ 01-10-2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-10-2003 05:02 AM                        maybe john pytlak could answer: what is the technical difficulty involved in printing an id frame somewhere on the leader before the actual start of the reel? if it is a matter of minimizing negative handling, the actual frame need not be used. the previous frame (or 2 or 3) from the shot (just before the edit) could be picked up off the cutting room floor and used. it will match well enough. if that footage can't be found, some workprint could be cannibalized for the frames. the extra generation or timing difference would not matter as it would never be seen on screen and would suffice for id. if it's a matter of extra expense to have to splice into an otherwise standardized leader, well surely it can't be that great an expense. carl  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-10-2003 07:04 AM                        Carl Martin asked: "what is the technical difficulty involved in printing an id frame somewhere on the leader before the actual start of the reel?" Yes, it COULD be done. If you needed to duplicate the actual first and last frames of the reel, you need to make a duplicate negative of those frames, which takes extra time and puts the original negative at additional risk. If you select frames from the adjacent "outtakes" of the scene, the assistant editor would have to find those frames and insert them into the negative leader. But sometimes, an outtake is the backup in case the original footage becomes damaged, so there would be a reluctance to cut frames out of it. There IS an SMPTE Recommended Practice (SMPTE RP 152) that specifies that film title, reel number, sound type and aspect ratio should be printed along the analog soundtrack edge of release prints in the program 6-8 feet after the head leader, and 6-8 feet before the tail leader. But this area is now occupied by the SDDS track on most prints. (FWIW, SMPTE RP 152 was "on the books" long before SDDS digital sound was invented). Of all the ideas presented to aid in positively identifying reels, replacing some of the tiny Dolby "Double-D" logos (ideally every fourth logo to aid in counting frames too) with a reel number would be good, if feasible with current recording practice for Dolby Digital tracks. The other would of course be to have easy on-line access to images of the first and last frames of each reel, either from the distributor, the exchange (TES, ETS, etc.), or an independent third party like Film-Tech.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 01-10-2003 09:07 AM                        Is magenta edgeprinting possible during printing? If so I'm sure following SMTPE RP 152 would be easier to do than altering the DD track.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-10-2003 11:06 AM                        Daryl asked: "Is magenta edgeprinting possible during printing? If so I'm sure following SMTPE RP 152 would be easier to do than altering the DD track." The trouble is that any edgeprint writing would have to be printed on the edge of the sound negative, on top of the SDDS track. So it would be printed the SAME color as the SDDS track, and interfere with the reading of the track. The magenta edgeprint ID Kodak uses is put on the raw stock by very expensive equipment during the finishing of the film, and we can carefully control the color and density to minimize any interference with the SDDS track.  |  IP: Logged

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