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Author Topic: The Logic of Threading a Projector Top to Bottom Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-23-2003 04:23 PM                     I was taught to thread from top to bottom and, consequently, that's the way I always taught it. I can thread up or down; it's no different for me. Last year I tried teaching the bottom-to-top method (after reading Film-Tech posts on this topic) but it proved too confusing to the students -- especially to projectionists who had become accustomed to doing it from the top for years. In the end, we reverted to the top-down method in the interest of continuity and simplicity. I know of one projectionist who uses the bottom-up method. HOWEVER, I should point out that we're using Christie CA-21 automations and there's about 80-feet of clearance between our thread marks and the run-down cue -- and the leaders get cleaned before each use and they are replaced about every 12 months -- so it really doesn't hurt anything that gets shown to the public. I, for one, can't see a difference on-screen in my theatres. [ 01-23-2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]  |  IP: Logged Chris Tyson Film Handler Posts: 15 From: Branson, MO, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 01-23-2003 05:49 PM                        I was taught the old top to bottom, but when I found this site I read the tips and tricks. Then I looked at our brand new Simplex Millenniums we were getting for our new 3plex and decided to try it this way. The first day or two was very different but the more I did it the more I forgot about the old way. It is much quicker and easier for me and even my other projectionists who have been doing it the old way for years thought I was nuts at first then after they watched me they could see it's benifits. I also found a way to get rid of the re-making loops by taking a Sharpie permanent marker and drawing frames lines on the outside of the feed sprocket, holdback sprocket and on the sprocket in the soundhead. All you have to do is thread it up and look at where your frame lines line up on each of the sprockets. Draw a line from the center to the edge between the teeth where your frameline is. Do this all the way around the sprockets on each frame line. (My sprockets have 24 teeth on 2 of them and 16 on my small sprocket in the soundhead, that means I can get 6 frames on each sprocket and 4 frames on the small one. As long as your sprocket teeth are a multiple of 4 you can do this.) Anyway, by doing this, I can always come back and land on the same size loops and tension on the damper roller every time. Plus, you'll always be in frame. At least I've never been out yet. I hope you can understand what I'm saying, if not ask and I'll try to explain more.  |  IP: Logged System Notices Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi Posts: 215 Registered: Apr 2004 posted 08-19-2004 01:23 AM                 It has been 573 days since the last post.  |  IP: Logged Robert L. Fischer Expert Film Handler Posts: 145 From: Montreal, Quebec Registered: May 2004 posted 08-19-2004 01:23 AM                    After reading comments on the message board and in the tips section, I too have tried "threading up." I don't do it all the time yet because I'm still quite clumsy with it, but I'm willing to change. The problem is, we have SPECO platters, so you have to engage the take-up mechanism by hitting a button. Apparently, before I worked at my theater, folks used to thread with the take-up mechanism engaged, and whenever the film got caught somewhere in the process of threading, the mechanism would rise to its peak position and this excessive tension often resulted in snapped rods on the platter tree. On top of all of that, I also find it very difficult to get the film in proper position on our Simplex 35 projectors (mounted on top of SH-1000 soundheads) to thread from bottom to top. The likely reason for my problems is that gravity is working against the slack of film instead of with it. The process overall has just been very clumsy and because I have always threaded with the take-up mechanism turned off in order to prevent breaking rods, it doesn't seem like it will save time. Any time I do thread from top to bottom, I end up having to re-open the hold-back sprocket in the soundhead in order to make proper loops. Of course, the most important benefit is keeping film off of the floor, but I'm hoping to remove the clumsiness from the process and perhaps figure out a way to engage the take-up mechanism without spinning it manually. Any suggestions? EDIT: Someone respond! [ 08-20-2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Robert L. Fischer ]  |  IP: Logged Dominic Espinosa Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1172 From: California, U.S.A. Registered: Jan 2004 posted 08-20-2004 09:02 PM                     I too was one of the many sad fellows taught top-to-bottom threading. The happy medium I found until I was able to break the habbit was to clamp the film in the holdback sprocket in the soundhead and then do my thing top to bottom, engage the platter to takeup and let the slack out. I did this on Simplex 35's and Century SA's until a few months ago when I finally bit the bullet and changed my ways. I've had no big changes in speed this way because I tend to be a bit clumsy with the loops still, but it does have it's obvious advantages. Personally I believe any way that you can competantly thread the equipment without getting the film on the floor is just fine.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-20-2004 09:16 PM                     Consider this...if you note where the frame line falls on your feed sprockets (after setting the intermittent to just after it stops rotating), you can thread bottom to top without having to reset any loops or tension on any projector. I've found I'm notably faster on two feed-sprocket machines like Kinoton when threading bottom to top and about even on others or perhaps a bit faster top to bottom. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 08-20-2004 10:41 PM                     Oh boy, something's wrong here. Did Steve just admit to bottom up threading being faster after my preaching the trick to it for years??? Steve, did someone steal your password? Is that really you?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-21-2004 01:16 AM                     Brad, If you will note, I qualified my statement (for me at least) to two-feed sprocket machines being faster bottom-up. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 08-21-2004 03:01 AM                     The trick works just as well on 3 sprocket machines.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 08-21-2004 03:34 AM                        Boy... this is one where the old dog is having troubles! Lessee... ummmm... forty (ahhemm) five, or so years ago... 16mm school stuff... then theatres, then a couple of decent TV stations, then more theatres... union and not... Y'know... in all those years, not one single time did I ever have anyone suggest the idea of threading from the bottom up... and in the mid '70s, I spent some time under the watchful eyes of a few of Seattle's pickiest. When I was a kid, the projectionist that introduced me to the real world had his career on the line whenever I went near his machines. I'd never even heard of the idea until I ran into it on this board. I'll grant that it may be easier to keep the leader off the floor in some kind of bottom-up configuration, but I'm having trouble figuring any other benefit to this.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 08-21-2004 03:59 AM                     Long ago, Brad wrote: quote: Brad Miller Whatever is easiest for the particular booth and whatever keeps the film off of the floor. I agree with that; providing no damage is done to film or equipment, and a good presentation is made, I think any operator should be free to use whatever method they find easiest. I have never used platters, so I can't comment on the situation there. About 90% of the projecton I've done has been changeovers, the other 10% from towers. Most of what I've run in recent years has been Kinoton. I attach the film to the take-up spool first, I never put the film into a slot, normally just wrap it around the core of the spool. With some designs of spools, e.g. the black plastic Cinemeccanica ones, this can sometimes be diifficult if the film has a tight reverse curl on it, for example, if the film has been stored tail out on a 2 inch core emulsion out, the leader can have this problem. In this case I sometimes use a couple of inches of tape. I always used to start at the gate, and then work up and down from there, but now normally start at the top sprocket. The reason for this is that most of the programmes I run now have been made up on 6k spools, and many people when they make up will often overfill a spool, rather than go to a third spool. If I thread through the gate before putting the film on the sprocket, it's to easy to have film fall off the edge of the spool. Polyester seems worse for this than triacetate. By putting the film on the sprocket first this won't happen. I pull the film down while taking up on the spool until I get to frame lines, lace onto the top sprocket, without bothering about framing, then through the gate and intermittant, then go back and adjust the top loop, if necessary, then carry on with the sound head and bottom sprocket. Check everything, inch the film down, make sure everythiing's ok, then if there's a long way to go, I sometimes run the film down on the motor untiil a foot or so before the correct frame, then inch down to that frame, and make a final check on the whole path. I suppose the situation with a tower is somewhat similar to a platter, with a lot of film running through the air, to and from the projector. In this case I think it mght be easer to thread from bottom up, but I've never tried it; I haven't run a tower for a long time. If I ever run one again, I'll try it.  |  IP: Logged Jason M Miller Master Film Handler Posts: 284 From: Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA Registered: Jul 2004 posted 08-21-2004 09:38 PM                     We use old Century Projecters and they are a pain in the butt to thread backwords(I have only done it one or twice) it is very tight in there and going around the sprockets can be a pain in the a$$. I am going to try it more often to see if I can get it down.  |  IP: Logged Dan Lyons Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 698 From: Seal Beach, CA Registered: Sep 2002 posted 08-21-2004 10:19 PM                     quote: Jason M Miller old Century Projecters and they are a pain in the butt to thread backwords(I have only done it one or twice) it is very tight in there and going around the sprockets can be a pain in the a$$. Are you being serious? What model? I sure wouldn't consider a C, or an SA to be tight in threading at all. danny  |  IP: Logged Robert L. Fischer Expert Film Handler Posts: 145 From: Montreal, Quebec Registered: May 2004 posted 08-22-2004 02:59 AM                    quote: Chris Tyson I also found a way to get rid of the re-making loops by taking a Sharpie permanent marker and drawing frames lines on the outside of the feed sprocket, holdback sprocket and on the sprocket in the soundhead. All you have to do is thread it up and look at where your frame lines line up on each of the sprockets. That seems like a pretty good solution, assuming of course that the marks don't cover any film-bearing surfaces. I doubt my manager would let me mark up the inside of the projector though.  |  IP: Logged Edward Jurich Master Film Handler Posts: 305 From: Las Vegas USA Registered: Jul 2003 posted 08-22-2004 11:33 AM                     I pull the film from the (SPECO) platter through the projector but bypass everything in the projector then out the projector back to the platter. Then I hand feed the not yet engaged takeup platter until the leader is where I want it. Then start threading at the gate to frame. Film never touches the floor no matter what.  |  IP: Logged

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