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Author Topic: Why white leader at the end of film? Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-13-2003 07:21 PM                     quote: If the white tail leader is spliced directly at the end of film, I fully agree with you. But why don't leave the film tail leader? And where exactly did I ever say to remove the tail leader? I didn't. The tail of the last reel should never be removed. If you are cutting off part of a "long" tail, then I have to question your patience. The most I have ever seen on a lab supplied tail is 30 feet. That is nothing. I always put 50 feet or more. Even 100 feet of tail leader would only take about a minute to roll through. Are you in THAT much of a rush?  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-13-2003 07:39 PM                     Well, wha'd'ya know: I was wrong about it being a drag-strip. Interesting idea to color-code for different ratings. I once tried using different colors to indicate scope or flat. It didn't work out because there was always SOMEONE who just wanted to use whatever color was handy. I actually don't have hard feelings about it, though. It's easier to just keep one color in stock. Back to ensuring that the "right movie" is playing... All of our projectionists are trained to add a strip of white kraft tape and WRITE the name of the movie as well as image and sound formats. They also mark the print number and the initials of the person who built the print. Getting back to the color-coded ratings: The rating is kind-of irrelevant in the booth, isn't it? Surely, you want to make sure that it's the scheduled movie and not just a movie that's "suitable" for the minimum age viewer?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-13-2003 07:55 PM                     Good to see you aren't bothering to read all of the posts Manny. Michael, Steve and myself all had a few things to say.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-13-2003 08:09 PM                     I can explain! That's what happens when you take too long to draft a response. Other people reply in the meantime. For the record, I read all of the posts except I didn't see David's or Brad's posts because they hadn't been posted yet. Anyway...I'm sorry! Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-13-2003 08:13 PM                     I was just poking fun because the way your post reads, three people agreed with your drag strip explanation. Even more interesting though, how long do you spend to compose a response? Nah, I'll start a new thread for that. Should be interesting.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-13-2003 09:38 PM                        Extra protective leader is a really good idea, as is color-coding and labeling to avoid confusion. Kodak's FPC subsidiary sells a variety of 35mm leaders: http://www.fpchollywood.com/film-leaders-editorial-leaders.html  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-13-2003 11:50 PM                        This isn't just a platter issue; extra leader is important for reel-to-reel shows, too, and I'll definitely add extra head and tail leader to any print that will be run more than a couple of times. This is especially important with 6000' reels, as most labs just give barely enough tail leader to wrap around a full 6000' reel. I've been using clear "sound fill" leader (which appears to be sections of old release prints which have been bleached or otherwise had the emulsion removed). I'd never thought about the color-coding idea, but I'd be tempted to try it if the colored leader isn't significantly more expensive. The 16mm film libraries usually use green for head leaders and red for tail leaders.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-14-2003 01:12 AM                     In film editing red leader and red marking pens are reserved for sound elements. I know it doesn't really affect most of us (unless you do double-system test screenings) but I still can't bring myself to use anything red on prints. Or blue, for that matter. Because blue designated optical compositions (effects shots). Green was for negatives. "Cut Picture" (i.e. edited reels or segments) got white or yellow leader and all notations were made in black ink. And I'm trapped into that mode of thinking. I can't shake loose. It just looks wrong to me when I see other colors used in projection leaders. I made up the master of my leaders using white painted leader with frame ticks. I marked it up with a black sharpie and then had it looped and contact printed onto black and white reversal stock (polyester base). The white part comes out clear -- making it very easy to frame -- and the polyester base is virtually indestructable. Each individual leader is 100' in length and they can take a lot of abuse. There's no real rhyme or reason, but the operators will occasionally send some dirty leaders to me for cleaning and I'll make sprocket repairs, if needed. We print a new batch of these leaders (4000') about every 2 years or so. (These are head (threading) leaders, by the way). Because of the looping process, the lab has to add its own leader and this results in about 15 feet of "junk" film in between each leader. I give it to the operators to use as drag strips but they don't last very long. Just last week somebody left the tail taped down and they were relieved to find that only the drag had been affected because the actual print had already tailed out of the machine and was half-way up the return side of the platter when the jam occurred. Not all of our projectionists add extra tails to their movies. It isn't mandatory for them to do so. Those who do sometimes use the original white painted leader that we once used for threading. We still have quite a bit of that but it doesn't stand up to repeated runs because it's an acetate base, which tears easily. Most often, that white stock is used with Velcro to make a tail wrap. BEWARE OF VINYL STOCK -- I once got a couple of rolls of this stuff and it doesn't like to go through the projector. It's very flexible and bendy and it just kept walking right out of the projector. I am still picking up little, tiny scraps of vinyl leader off the floor and out of lamp houses and we haven't used vinyl in over 3 years. The brand name was "Jubilee" or something like that. Anyway, it's vinyl and it didn't work for me. Wow! That's a long, rambling post. It's late and I clearly need sleep. Good night all. This post took waaaay too long to compose (about 7 mins).  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 02-14-2003 06:25 AM                        When preparing archival elements for any trip through a machine of any description, we always attach 60ft of spacing at the start and end for 35mm, 30ft for 16mm and 10ft for 8mm and 9.5mm. For master status elements we use light-struck spacing only, in case the dyes used on dyed stock were to decompose and/or cause contamination. We use coloured (inert) cores to indicate the base type: red=nitrate, white=triacetate, brown=other acetate and/or mag striped (mag film is coded according to its base type) and black=polyester. For viewing copies (i.e. not preservation elements) we use green dyed spacing at the head and red at the tail, in order to easily be able to identify whether a reel is head out or tail out.  |  IP: Logged Antonio Marcheselli Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1260 From: Florence, Italy Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-14-2003 08:46 AM                        Brad, I always wonder me if my idea of "film made right" is correct or not. I strongly believe in your "film done right" procedures, but sometims I wonder me if some of them are just a bit exaggerated. Let's take the tail of the film. I fully agree that if the tail is short an extra leader must be spliced. But what about if the original tail can surround the film two times? I cannot see the need to add extra leader in this case, or not? I usually cut extra tail just to have 1/2 round after the end of the film to protect it. But I cannot see the need of wait 1 minute at each projector when unloading it. Brad, our system (cinemeccanica's) will not unload the projector automatically when the end of the film is reached. More generally, I believe that sometimes the "film done right" has to co-exist with the reality of the job! So, I'd say let's keep 3 meters of leader, not 30... I'm not sure to have express my thought exactly! Bye Antonio  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 02-14-2003 10:12 AM                        Does the automation not allow you to keep the projector running at the end, just close the douser? I think we talked about this before, but I don`t remember.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-14-2003 10:29 AM                        When using platters, the protective leader at the tail end must be long enough so any leader that has the opportunity to touch a dirty surface (e.g., the dirty floor) is separated from the image-bearing film by a reasonable distance. Dirt picked up by the leader tends to migrate into the roll, so the more laps of leader, the better.  |  IP: Logged Antonio Marcheselli Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1260 From: Florence, Italy Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-14-2003 10:46 AM                        Michael, No, our automation doesn't allow to run the film at closed dowser. I can make a program that do it but when the film exit from the projector the platter failsafe will alarm the projector without terminate the program. I saw in Milan another automation system that act as you described. John, Yes, there must be a tail leader to prevent the dirt to transfer to the final part of the film, but I believe that 1/2 round at the end of the film are enough... What do you think? Bye Antonio  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-14-2003 11:21 AM                     Antonio, One half wrap around a print of tail leader is NOT enough. Just like head leader, tail leader that is dragged on the floor and handled (tucking the print and winding it onto the takeup platter, etc) will collect dirt and that dirt will migrate backwards into the roll, just like head leader dirt migrates inwards into the roll. Your cutting off less than 5 feet at the end saves you what, a few SECONDS? In the time it has taken you to read this one paragraph, that excess leader you cut off and threw away could have already passed. Really, you need to learn some patience for the best interest of the films you run and your presentation. Also, over here in the US we make our measurements in feet not meters. I also never said that tail leader had to be a minute long to protect the end. I understand you are still learning English, but you do need to read carefully.  |  IP: Logged Antonio Marcheselli Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1260 From: Florence, Italy Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-14-2003 12:21 PM                        rad, I did not say one half, I said one or two wrap around film tail!! Sometimes the original tail of the film can wrap the film four or five times at the end of the film. This is too much IMHO. I didn't mean that I do not want to wait at the end of film. I said that, in my honest opinion, four or five wrap around the tail of the film is too much. Meter: I apologize for the inconvenience, but I really do not have right here a metric converter (I have a link on my PC at home that I use to convert meter/feet) and I tought that an indication in meter can be understandable. Sorry. About the english: sometimes I misunderstand people that speak Italian, I believe that you too sometimes does the same. So please excuse me if sometime I misuderstand you or others that speak a foreing language! With "a minute" I meant the time you have to wait with a too long tail! However my reply want to analyze a more general question: are sometimes some "film done right" procedures too "exaggerated" if conpared to the real projection job? Bye! Antonio  |  IP: Logged

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