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Author Topic: LED readers Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 02-23-2003 10:05 PM                    There is no logical reason for NATO to support this unless they are just sympathetic to the labs' problems. Sure we don't want prints with developer splash but that's not a huge problem for us--if some slip by they get replaced. That makes it a lab problem. So I do not know why NATO is supporting it. Usually business groups follow their members' financial interests.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-23-2003 10:18 PM                     I guess the best solution would be a conversion for despite steves comment of higher distortion reverse scan, laser and jax light all exhibit higer high freq. response and better channel seperation. As well there will be less stock wasteage and fewer rejected prints And as for the comment a theatre cannot afford a red light conversion then they should not be in business for ever supplier will if the theatre has maintained good credit will provide reasonable credit terms and frankly 900.00 as the most expensive route is not unreasonable to stay in business. If not then then they have been probably jerking there suppliers around any way sorry but that is a very hard reality to take and really needs to be brought into consideration I have a very hard line to take if tomorrow the labs converted stating cyan only the only theatres I would be working through the night to convert would be those that had been supporting my business by being paid up on an ongoinging basis and the rest could go and try to find someone else and if they couldn't too bad  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-24-2003 05:10 AM                        Frank--I should point out that the 10dB number was a completely arbitrary number that I made up for the sake of a question/example. I don't remember offhand how much worse the s/n ratio is for dye tracks vs. silver tracks.  |  IP: Logged Bill Langfield Master Film Handler Posts: 280 From: Prospect, NSW, Australia Registered: Apr 2001 posted 02-24-2003 10:41 AM                        On the subject of these reverse scan LED’s, how long should they last? I thought LEDS had a life of Well, erm forever, but these things seem to only last a few years. To keep the dolby level correct, VR1 in the LED’s power supply (Kelmar) has to be turned up all the time to the point where, in the morning when you come in, and power up the PS just goes tick-tick-tick and the led is pulsing, only solution is to back the power off then get a new a LED later on. (I will have to check why the VR1 is being turned up, but I’m sure it’s because there is not enough light coming out of the LED to wind the pre amps level up to dolby level 50%) Also with these cyan or silver-less prints, will sound levels be effected when you run one session WITH a cyan print, then the next session with a silver print? BILL.  |  IP: Logged Jeffry L. Johnson Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 809 From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 02-24-2003 11:02 AM                        here See Figure 6 Red Readers, Silver, High-Magenta, and Cyan Analog Soundtracks: Review and Status by Paul R. Goldberg Noise Performance Tests have demonstrated that readers based on broad band tungsten, or white light, illumination sources are quieter than readers based on narrow band red LED illumination sources (660 ± 20 nm light energy spectrum). It is believed that this is due to the fact that when the track is illuminated by broad spectrum white light, the incoherent noise sources from each of the film's color layers add on a random basis and thus the noise "averages out." If a narrow spectral band illumination system is employed, this averaging cannot take place and thus the signal-to-noise ratio is impaired. This is true whether a standard silver track, high-magenta applicated track, or cyan dye track is being presented. It is also independent of the type of release stock employed. Figure 6 depicts this phenomenon for a standard silver track on Agfa release stock. Note that in all cases the curves for the red reader "look worse than they actually sound." This is because it is extremely rare for the bias line to fully open during actual movie sound track presentation. Extensive listening tests at Dolby Laboratories have shown that the use of Dolby SR encoded soundtracks, although not completely eliminating the additional red reader noise, reduces its effect to the point that air conditioner noise will significantly mask the problem.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-24-2003 11:16 AM                     NATO? You've got to be kidding...they haven't a clue about projection. These are the same people that brought you the polyester and ELR debacles. I wouldn't use them as a source of good ideas for projection. In the big picture John, the film industry is best served by staying with conventional redeveloped soundtracks (not even high-magenta) and going to an IR light source. They are the most stable and best performing. Whereas the exhibitors have nothing to gain (not even cost savings for reduced print waste) they only have money to loose (purchase of a red reader system and continious LED fade) they are a poor business choice for both short term and long term money. As to the cost of the reader, Gordon...it isn't $500-$900 it is that much PER SCREEN/Projector which can be many thousands for no benefit. Then add in the cost of repacement LEDs that, for the most part, require the services of a technican to perform properly. Steve  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 02-24-2003 08:02 PM                    Oh but Steve, you worry too much. Installing noisier air conditioning will solve the problem, didn't you know?  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 02-24-2003 08:12 PM                        Too bad for New York, cell phone related noise won't mask the cyan track noise. Anyways, I agree with Steve, $2000 per screen for changeover houses may be affordable, but just like Fox now charging $50 to have a print delivered to the bus depot, it too is affordable, but I'm still going to complain about it. I guess, like John pointed out, it really comes down to social responsibility.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-24-2003 09:55 PM                     The social responsibility is to provide the best product you can...to better the quality of life....not fall into dubious environmental propoganda (I believe the conservatives call them, mostly correctly, enviro-wackos). Even the EPA isn't targeting the re-development process as used in the film industry. Steve  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-24-2003 10:25 PM                     Actually they are targeting in Europe and other countries so the US really ahs very little choice in it And I can convert for around 900.00 per screen in quantity plus labour  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-24-2003 11:04 PM                     The US does not have to follow suit just based on what other countries are doing. Steve  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-25-2003 09:48 AM                        Steve wrote: quote: ...dubious environmental propoganda (I believe the conservatives call them, mostly correctly, enviro-wackos). Even the EPA isn't targeting the re-development process as used in the film industry... The US does not have to follow suit just based on what other countries are doing. Movies are a worldwide business. Many features released in the US are printed and processed in Canada or Europe. As Daryl said, social and environmental responsibility DO matter, despite the prevailing sentiments in Washington. Since there is already a majority of red LED readers in place, the interim "high magenta" (silver + magenta dye) tracks are more compatible with the existing mix of both white light and red light readers. "Traditional" (silver + cyan + magenta) analog tracks have different cross-modulation distortion for each type of reader, making them less compatible.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-25-2003 12:03 PM                     John, Your "majority" of red-light reader comes from rather dubious numbers if they originate from Dolby. They haven't a clue as to where they have sold their LEDs...how many are replacements and how many are for digital readers. The switch from red to infrared would be quick, painless and long lasting if the stupid high-magenta cyan agenda were to die. Steve  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-25-2003 01:28 PM                        So you say red LEDs are in less than 50% of theatres? If the theatres you service have a low conversion rate, could you be part of the reason?  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 02-25-2003 01:45 PM                         |  IP: Logged

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