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Author Topic: "We Ran It Wet" Hillary Charles Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 748 From: York, PA, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 02-23-2003 03:04 PM                     From what I've read, by the mid 1930's, Lohn Logie Baird had to abandon his mechanical television in order to compete with EMI's electronic version. He had contracted Philo T. Farnsworth to provide his electronic system, which by that time, had several disadvantages compared to the EMI/RCA system. Farnsworth's Image Dissector tube was not as light sensitive as the EMItron camera tube, and resolution was also an issue. The 1936 Olympics also used the Farnsworth system, and when Philo and his wife traveled to Germany to collect his royalties, their passports were revoked and they had to be smuggled out of the country! There are several good books on the subject: TUBE, PLEASE STAND BY, and THE LAST LONE INVENTOR  |  IP: Logged John Anastasio Master Film Handler Posts: 325 From: Trenton, NJ, USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 02-23-2003 05:26 PM                        IN 1953, CBS had a lab installed in an aircraft so that they could process the film of the coronation of HM Queen Elizabeth and have it ready for showing when they touched down in NYC several hours later.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 02-23-2003 05:33 PM                        Kodak VNF color reversal films are still available. Users include film schools, travelogues, and instrumentation (e.g., photographing automobile "crash dummy" tests). The resolution and measurement ability are still preferred to digital for analyzing high speed action: Kodak reversal films Kodak VNF-1 Process Stored properly, many of those color and B&W newsfilms are in better condition than the tapes used for early ENG.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 02-23-2003 05:39 PM                    Wasn't NBC transferring news video to film for preservation? I don't know if they still do but I'm certain I've seen footage that was almost certainly shot on tape but had been put on film.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 02-23-2003 05:48 PM                        This is straying a little off-topic, but for some reason this thread reminded me of a Polaroid instant-movie invention called "Polavision": The camera used a proprietary Polaroid FILM-based cartridge (similar to 8mm; NOT videotape). I think each cartridge held like 2.5 mins. of SILENT footage. When you finished shooting a roll, you removed the cartridge from the camera and inserted it in this special developer/viewer contraption, and a couple minutes later, presto, viewable film! Needless to say this was the wrong product at the wrong time and it was a HUGE and costly flop for Polaroid. Affordable videotape systems were just on the horizon, with MUCH better picture quality, plus sound. Plus I think you could only show the film on this special viewer. I remember Polavision being featured on the old Tom Snyder "Tomorrow" show (used to run after David Letterman when he was on NBC). An executive from Polaroid was there and demonstrated their "revolutionary" new instant motion picture film system. If not for videotape, I suppose this Rube Goldberg technology could have been adapted to professional uses like news footage for television. More Info About Polavision  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 02-23-2003 06:18 PM                     About the time of Polavision, Polaroid was experimenting with a black and white 16mm film stock with the capability of processing within a camera with an a development kit. This was destined for news reporting but outside of some technical annoucements in engineering journals, never was marketed. I worked in a television film lab one summer in the late 1960's and remember doing some "wet telecine" work for important news film if it had to air before a 45 minute deadline. Richard Fowler Kinoton America Inc.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 02-23-2003 06:27 PM                     Steve wrote: quote: Wasn't NBC transferring news video to film for preservation? I don't know if they still do but I'm certain I've seen footage that was almost certainly shot on tape but had been put on film. The reminds me of another magazine article I once read, I think it may have been in something from the BKSTS. (I used to spend far too much of my time reading technical magazines). A television company had developed a system for archiving colour video material by recording it onto 35mm black and white film stock. This material was chosen both for its superior archival properties and its low cost. The process didn't record colour separations in the conventional sense; the composite video, which was still normal for broadcast work at that time was first separated into luma and chroma. The luma was recorded as a conventional monochrome positive image, but with a 2:1 anamorphic squeeze, using half the normal frame width. Alongside it the chroma was recorded using the other half. Exactly how it was encoded, I don't know. The film could then be run on any conventional black and white or colour telecine, and the resulting video signal put through a box of tricks which would recreate the original composite video. It was claimed that the system had the additional advantage that the film could be projected, in black and white only, using a half width aperture and an anamorphic lens, for preview purposes. The system was said to be in use, but I have never heard of it since. The BBC has re-created several episodes of 'Dr. Who, which they had long ago discarded, by combining black and white film recordings sold for transmission overseas with colour Betamax home video recordings.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 02-23-2003 11:12 PM                    I still have a brochure for Polavision I picked up at a long ago CES. Also fliers for other various still-born systems that were never even marketed like JVC VHD videodisk and the Toshiba LVR stationary head VCR. There was instant 35mm slide film using the same additive screen technology. I still kick myself that I didn't buy a CBS EVR player when it was available in a surplus catalog. EVR (Electronic Video Recording) used B&W film with a pair of frames, one representing luminance and the other the chroma info. Or both could be used separately for double the program time. The film was read via flying spot scanner.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-24-2003 12:17 AM                  I did a lot of 16mm newsreel and film processing at a TV station I worked at in the late 60s & early 70s. We used Kodak EFB 7242 EKTACHROME (and some 7256) reversal film mostly at an EI of 125 tungsten/80 daylight with a #85 filter. (From memory....) That series film was later replaced with the VNF (Video News Film)series. The film processor I used was a Filmline FP50 or some such thing. It would normally take about 25 minutes to process and dry the 1st foot of film and then the film would come out at 50 feet per min. We used the Kodak ME-4 process which was a 100% improvement over the old process. This process used a chemical reversal where as the old one required a re-exposure light for the reversal. One could cheat a little on the time for a hot news story by speeding up the machine in the color-developer, the bleach, the fixer, and some of the washes. You could NOT cheat on the pre-hardener, 1st developer or the last chemical step (stabilizer) or the drying. If you did that, the emulsion would be too soft and peel off the second you projected it. The film was always dry. Also, we always cut/edited it before it was aired. The term "wet" might have been used in the context to convey it was a hot story and not literally. The projectors we used were RCA TP-66 telecine projectors. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 02-24-2003 02:08 AM                     Steve wrote: quote: I still have a brochure for Polavision I picked up at a long ago CES. Also fliers for other various still-born systems that were never even marketed like JVC VHD videodisk and the Toshiba LVR stationary head VCR. There was instant 35mm slide film using the same additive screen technology. VHD was certainly marketed in Japan, and, to a limited extent, in Europe; I don't know if it ever was in America. Polaroid instant slide film is still available.  |  IP: Logged John Anastasio Master Film Handler Posts: 325 From: Trenton, NJ, USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 02-24-2003 05:03 AM                        CBS News used the Y/C process for producing seperate B&W matrices during the 1970s. As a result, the color from those films is still recoverable. I remember it being briefly marketed as a consumer product, but it was eclipsed by the Betamax and finally VHS. You could only watch the film cassettes and couldn't record with it.  |  IP: Logged Bernard Tonks Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 619 From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England Registered: Apr 2001 posted 02-24-2003 06:06 AM                     Stephen asked, Bernard, did you ever know either Ted Church or Harry Court? No,never heard of them. Were they in the early days before me at Kingsway or Wells Street? I was last at the new studios in Grays' Inn Road, doing freelance about 10 years ago.  |  IP: Logged Paul Trimboli Master Film Handler Posts: 274 From: Perth Western Australia Registered: Dec 2002 posted 02-24-2003 06:52 AM                     Baird's first television broadcasts were made with 30 lines, scanner vertical giving you an odd shaped aspect ratio. He broadcast television programs over the AM band of the BBC after the main sound broadcast was over. He used a mirror drum camera to project a flying spot onto his subjects. There have been some recording found that people recorded at home, using home record recorders. The images have been recovered and the programs actually had great entertainment value. When Baird was using his 250line system he had 3 systems to televise with, one was a flying spot system which was rarely used, the second was the intermediate film process which made around a 3 min delay from camera to broadcast, and he used a Philo image disector as well. He projected large screen images in colour around this time as well. I have built mechanical television systems, nothing is more reqarding then seeing a Television picture from a camera and reciver you built yourself!  |  IP: Logged Hillary Charles Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 748 From: York, PA, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 02-24-2003 07:47 AM                     That sounds like a fun project! The photos of Baird's original apparatus made it appear like a tangle of junk, but he made it work. Components like a hat box and other odds and ends wouldn't inspire much confidence, but he was the first to transmit television pictures. I've head that he produced a color version of his mechanical system, but I never knew of his large-screen work. And he actually did make the first video recordings on wax discs (the first videodiscs!). There's a site which can be accessed through: Early Television Foundation which displays segments from Baird's recordings.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 02-26-2003 12:43 PM                     Bernard wrote: quote: No,never heard of them. Were they in the early days before me at Kingsway or Wells Street? I was last at the new studios in Grays' Inn Road, doing freelance about 10 years ago. Bernard, I don't know a great deal about their backgrounds, but they both taught projection at Wandsworth Tech (now South Thames College) in the mid '70s. By that time, this was just 16mm, but there had previously been a setup there for training cinema projectionists. The reason I mention them is that one of them had some involvment with the Coronation video/film recording/projecting system, and had a few photographs of the equipment. I think it was Harry. They had been involved in a lot of interesting goings on in the 50s, and had stories going back to the sound on disk days. I was told that a pair of the GK Vistavision projectors was at one time installed in the College, but had long been removed when I was there. There was certainly a roll, a few hundred feet long of Vistavision print, lying around in one of the rooms, they used it to cut up for making slides from. It was when I saw a slide with an optical track on the top edge that I discovered Vistavision; I asked about it, and was shown the roll of film. Interestingly, I am certain that it had a VA track, duo-bilateral I think, but the print of 'Battle of the River Plate', which ran at the Odeon Leicester square had a VD track, which contained little or no silver. This must therefore have come from another film, but I don't know which one. In an e-mail exchange with another member of these forums a few months ago, I was told that one pair of the GK projectors went to a College, and that parts of a pair are in store at a location in the uk, but the other parts, which were thought to be somewhere in Switzerland, had not been located. At the time I knew them Ted was getting on in years, and Harry, though somewhat younger I think, had been ill, so I think it is quite liely that both of these gentlemen have now passed on; it is getting on for thirty years ago that I knew them. At that time the college library had a few books on film projection, including an old one with pictures of the (then) new Grandeur 70mm machine, and various other oddities from the '20s, early sound systems, etc.  |  IP: Logged

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