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Topic: Cyan Dye Track Experiences with "Anything Else"

Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-08-2003 08:38 PM

Scott
When I was running the High-Magenta prints, they ran and sounded fine. The error rate on the 500 was mainly 3's. Today I ran the Cyan print it was hitting 4s and alot of 5s on some reels on the CP. I have it running again tomorrow at 6pm. We have basement readers on our Magna-Tech PR-135 (FP20) projectors.
When we did the print sound checks for each format for Woody we ran the film in each format all the way though SRD / DTS / SDDS
/ SR.
The last format we checked was when we got the one-offs from DTS.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-08-2003 11:20 PM

Bill Gabel wrote:

quote:
When I was running the High-Magenta prints, they ran and sounded fine. The error rate on the 500 was mainly 3's. Today I ran the Cyan print it was hitting 4s and alot of 5s on some reels on the CP. I have it running again tomorrow at 6pm. We have basement readers on our Magna-Tech PR-135 (FP20) projectors

Whether the analog track is high magenta or cyan dye, it should not have affected the digital error rate. Perhaps the high magenta prints were EK Show Prints, done on a slower printer?

Did you have a chance to compare both the high magenta and cyan dye analog tracks for sound quality on the same reader/system?

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Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-09-2003 07:49 AM

Not yet, I will see about it sometime today.

I only posted the digital error rate info. Just in case anyone was interested , since the film opens very shortly.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 09-18-2003 07:06 AM

My first encounter with the cyan Anything Else...

I just did a basement reader to basement reader conversion for a customer that is to play the film...The reason...the old basement reader had IR light for analog and the good old EPT lamp for digital...one can't just install a visible red LED in place of the IR since the heat sinking on the IR LED brackets was not sufficient. The digital change came along for the ride so they went from an EPT lamp to visible red LED (CE has no way to retain the light pipe of the EPT with red reader brackets)

The entire sound negative is mono chromatic so all of the sound elements are CYAN...This includes the Dolby and DTS digital track areas.

We only check the system with one reel of the print to verify good analog and digital performance. No overt problems noted with the analog performance (as in it worked, not necessarily as well as IR LEDs and applicated tracks but it obeyed physical laws and the red LED did its job with the cyan track) and the level match between analog and digital was quite good.

On the digital side...it worked too (in fact, the change to the RED LED might have been the way to go with a cyan Dolby Digital track). However, with focus ratings near 80 on my test film...plumeted to 45-50 on Anything Else.

This is certainly not conclusive since I also have measured test film that achieves only a focus rating about 69 on even the best of readers and penthouses.

What I'm curious to see is how the tungsten filament penthouse readers do with a cyan Dolby Digital track (Cat. 699 and Cat 700). The cyan is translucent and is apt to give the digital processor more difficulty with deciding what level the bits are...once abrasion sets in as the print wears on the runners/tension bands/pads...etc.) how that plays into the mix.

If you have a white light digital reader and the dras/WinDras program...see how it does...pay attention to the "Quick Histogram" section...you should see two peaks that either fill the hight of the display area (so they level off) or peaks that are near that level...low peaks means the processor is struggling. One peak represents bright or a "1" bit and the other represents dark or a "0" bit. Just going to the red readers (basement or Cat. 701 or Cat. 702) normally lowers the peak of the right hand "hump". White light readers normally have high peaks and are often flattened off on the display (really good tracking).

Steve

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 09-18-2003 07:33 AM

quote:

The entire sound negative is mono chromatic so all of the sound elements are CYAN...This includes the Dolby and DTS digital track areas.

It needn't be done this way, Dolby digital in all three dyes plus SDDS in Cyan only is done, isn't it. Presumably they must have chosen to do it this way for some reason. Just for simplicity maybe, or is the DD sharper if in only one layer?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-18-2003 08:33 AM

Steve Guttag wrote:

quote:
No overt problems noted with the analog performance (as in it worked, not necessarily as well as IR LEDs and applicated tracks but it obeyed physical laws and the red LED did its job with the cyan track) and the level match between analog and digital was quite good.

Wow! The world has not ended, and the sky has not fallen. [Wink]

Let's toast with a glass of pure, clean water. [beer]

As to the Dolby Digital track being cyan only: I agree that using more than just the cyan layer for the Dolby Digital track probably provides a stronger signal (focus rating), especially with tungsten lamp illumination. Since the Dolby Digital track has never needed silver application, and since it is printed with a SEPARATE light source in the printer, it is NOT necessary to print the Dolby Digital track as cyan-only. Unless testing by Dolby indicates otherwise, I would think using all three dye layers would offer a more robust bitstream and lower error rate, especially with a tungsten light source.

Perhaps there was some miscommunication, and the lab thought the Dolby Digital track should be printed in the cyan only too?

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 09-18-2003 04:11 PM

I was surprised to see the DD track in cyan and it sure gives the illusion that it's printed with the same light source. I presume that the DTS timecode really IS printed with the analog track though.

BTW, my very first samples of SDDS had them using the magenta layer. That would look pretty sweet with a cyan analog track.

Images & soundtrack © 2003 Dreamworks and various big people who could smite me if they wished but I hope they don't. The Double-D symbol (can you see it?) is a registered trademark of Dolby® Laboratories.

Presented for educational purposes only!

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 09-19-2003 12:53 AM

I know that at least one of our non-LED-equipped locations has this film booked. I am awaiting the inevitible pages and '911' calls that will be coming tomorrow evening... [Roll Eyes]

-Aaron

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-19-2003 05:57 AM

I just screened this film on a white system. It sounds pretty bad, but not as outlandish as I had imagined. The overall level is low (you have to turn the fader all the way up), there is a certain level of background noise, especially a constant high-pitched wailing sound.
Switching to Academy mono with its filtering characteristics gets rid of that. For a Woody Allen movie with his typical mono mix with predominantly dialog and historical recordings, this is somehow acceptable. I am sure that is why this movie was chosen as the first to have a cyan track.

We already have enough red systems and of course our good old dts systems to cope with this first release without these compromises. And yes, we will put in more in the near future. Still, I resent the way this is pushed on us exhibitors without sharing the costs. I would much rather have spent all that money elsewhere.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-19-2003 06:02 AM

quote:
I know that at least one of our non-LED-equipped locations has this film booked. I am awaiting the inevitible pages and '911' calls that will be coming tomorrow evening...

-Aaron

If they KNEW they were playing this picture, why didn't they convert that screen to a red LED reader? The fact that all the release prints would have cyan dye analog tracks was announced months ago. If they're hoping to only use digital sound, let's hope their digital system doesn't default to analog for any reason, or it won't only be the soundtrack that is HISSING! [Roll Eyes]

I do hope some theatres TEST screen their print on a tungsten "white light" analog reader, and report the results here (low signal level, and high noise when you have to raise the fader are the expected result -- as Michael Schaffer found). But please DON'T try to screen it this way for a paying audience. [Frown]

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 09-19-2003 08:19 AM

If a cyan version of Dolby Tone were offered then someone with a white light reader could see where they were in terms of signal, crank the exciter voltage up to maximum, and do what they could with pre-amp gain (the latter won't help the S/N but at least the noisy signal would be going through NR and the matrix at the proper level). The strong DC offset caused by all that IR sailing right through the IR-transparent track ought to be ignored by the CP pre-amp, no? Of course such a showing would have to be sans any non-cyan trailers etc.

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-19-2003 03:09 PM

How big is the level difference? Judging by my experiments last night, I would guess about 12dB.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-19-2003 03:39 PM

quote:
How big is the level difference? Judging by my experiments last night, I would guess about 12dB.

You're darn close. The SMPTE paper by Paul Goldberg estimated ~11 dB signal loss if you play a cyan dye track on a white-light tungsten exciter lamp reader:

http://www.dyetracks.org/ci.os.0012.reddye.html

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John T. Hendrickson, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 889
From: Freehold, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-19-2003 07:35 PM

John-

To answer your request for information at the begining of the thread:

The print is playing in analog in our number 5 house. 5 Star Soundhead with LED reverse scan. CP 55 processor with Crown amps. There was no appreciable difference between the trailers and the print. I did not have to touch the gain. I did not detect any difference in quality of sound compared to other prints we have played in this house. Hope this answers your question.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-19-2003 08:31 PM

John, Thank you. As you may know, the Cyan Dye Track Committee is meeting at ShowEast, and this kind of factual information will be very helpful.

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