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Author Topic: Scanning film @4K for archiving, reissuing, and ultimate home theater Tao Yue Expert Film Handler Posts: 209 From: Princeton, NJ Registered: Apr 2001 posted 04-22-2004 10:06 PM                        In the wee hours of this morning Leo Enticknap wrote: quote: Leo Enticknap ... without any visible flicker, this is not the result of physical changes to the original over time. If Mr. Lowry's digitised film is outputted to 35mm and then shown at 16fps with a two-blade shutter, it will still flicker. in response to the snippet in the article about: quote: Leo Enticknap was the last to post Just plain time results in fading and flicker. A sky might pulse from yellow to blue in a beat. While Mr. Lowry did use the word flicker, he also referred to abrupt color shifts, in fact he even referred to fading. The phenomenon being corrected is variable fading over frames, caused by improper storage. It has nothing to do with frame rates or two-bladed shutters and indeed comes from physical degradation of the film. To use an extreme example, if you stored film vertically in a box that kept the top half in bright light and the bottom half in total darkness, for example, then after a while half of the film will have faded and the other half won't. When projecting or telecining, every half revolution will show an abrupt shift in contrast and brightness. If this happens fast enough (like near the center of the reel), it looks like flicker. Clearly the writer is not very technically-inclined, so it makes sense for Mr. Lowry to refer to a visual rather than technical description of the problem. Think of it as correcting flash frames introduced during printing, except that it happens more frequently than once per scene and involves a less predictable shift in contrast and brightness.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-22-2004 10:18 PM                        That type of "convolutional repeat" fading is usually seen when a roll of film is stored for a prolonged time near a heat source, such that one side of the roll is constantly warmer than the other. SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131 specifies storage conditions for long term storage of motion picture film.  |  IP: Logged Mattias Ohlson Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Falun, Sweden Registered: Mar 2003 posted 04-23-2004 03:00 AM                     Bobby H. I am always assuming film origination here. For some lower budget "movies" some form of refined video production might be used but that is not part of this discussion. With your reasoning you can never do anything because of the capabilities available in some fuzzy future. I do not get this part of your reasoning. Yes, I am sure scanners will improve especially in sensitivity. We might decide that there are other parameters besides "resolution".  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-23-2004 05:36 AM                        quote: Mattias Ohlson We might decide that there are other parameters besides "resolution". Of that there is no doubt, especially when it comes to sensors used in digital cameras.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-23-2004 12:29 PM                        quote: In the wee hours of this morning Leo Enticknap wrote: Uhh? The post you quote was at 2312 my time (according to Daryl's nifty local time feature, which squares with my memory), which should mean early evening in MA if I've got my sums right. Thanks for pointing out his definition of 'flicker', though - I didn't see that he was talking about dye fading caused by inconsistent heat or light exposure.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 04-23-2004 08:57 PM                     quote: Mattias Ohlson With your reasoning you can never do anything because of the capabilities available in some fuzzy future. I do not get this part of your reasoning. I didn't say you can't do anything with 4K. 4K would be a much better alternative to the current 2K de-facto standards for CGI and digital intermediate work on contemporary movies. 4K production certainly would have helped the digital intermediate scenes in "Kill Bill." Those scenes would not have looked so video-ish. I just don't see the point of using 4K as a means of long term archival. That's what can make 4K into a solution in search of a problem. It doesn't beat the original analog film elements and will not last in storage as long as those film elements. If a movie was shot on film and then revived on some home video format 20 years from now, those original film elements are just going to get re-scanned again at that time using up to date equipment of that age. The post production house isn't going to use a 20 year old digital file. The quality won't be acceptable.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2004 04:46 PM                        Mr. Lowry is right in going for the highest quality scanning and digital restoration, even for release on today's lesser video formats. Of course, the original film elements should continue to be preserved (e.g., specifications in SMPTE RP131), as improved future digital restoration (for film and future video formats) can best be done by rescanning the original film elements. If a 4K digital restoration is done today, it's likely there will be a "film out" for a limited film release to promote the digital release. If so, you have a new film element representing today's "state of the art" restoration, that can be stored for future use, in ADDITION to the original film elements.  |  IP: Logged

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