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Author Topic: WHICH CYAN READER IS BEST Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 10-23-2004 10:47 PM                        Can someone (many people) please post how you explain to theatre owners why a reverse scan reader conversion is better than a Jax Light solution, or vice versa. Is there any point, given the cost differences (about 30%), in not using a Jax Light in a drive-in situation using FM stereo sound?  |  IP: Logged Peter Hall Master Film Handler Posts: 314 From: London, UK Registered: Dec 2000 posted 10-24-2004 05:19 AM                        Jaxlites hummmm. Tempted to quote a noise to signal ratio, rather than a signal to noise ratio. And they are maintainence intensive - to get the hum level down, you need to up the LED current, prematurely killing the LEDs. Lasers are the next cheapest solution - we do a range that replaces the sound optic lens - response and noise are better than white light, and the more accurate focus gives crosstalk on a par with a basement reverse scan reader. Plus theres no preamp, so you are not 10 x as likely to pick up stray light or noise. To be fair, there is another brand around (as Pete Naples correctly points out) however until recently these used a mirror and shone thru the existing optics lens, adding another variable to the set up and restricting performance to the capabilities of perhaps a 20 year old slit lens - they give you cyan compatibility but no real performance gain. Next up are third party basement reader kits - Kelmar, Component Engineering, BACP - all good as far as I've seen, some better than others. And manufacturers kits - we love the Kinoton and like the Cinemec, plus Kinoton have recently introduced a range of lower cost upgrade kits. We'd say that if Digital is an option or even a possiblility then go for the basement kit. If not then go for a laser - they last longer than LEDs and sound as good.  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-24-2004 06:03 AM                     Peter, to say that the ACL Laser which mounts in the exciter lamp socket and uses a 45º mirror gives "no real performance gain" is not true in my experience. If correctly aligned (and I'll grant you that can be a pain in posterior to achieve) they give better HF response (due to the laser beam being narrower than the slit in the optic) and decreased L-R cross-talk. Microphony can be a problem, as can slit illumination, but I say again, if they are correctly installed and aligned then these things cease to be an issue. Reliability has been excellent. With the bulk the major operators in the UK using them they can't be far wrong! The new design from ACL Walter Voight is undoubtedly superior, the combined optic/laser is the way forward. Installation time is very short, and performance is superb. I fitted one on a Westar South of the border recently, HF flat to 16kHz with next to no slit loss Eq applied, cross talk un measureable on the scope, slit illumination flat to 1dB using Cat566/Arta 80, loads of signal level so S/N is excellent. Indistinguishable from CE or Kelmar reverse scan IMHO. I've got 4 of them to fit in Glasgow soon, two are upgrades to get non-redeveloped track compatibility and two are, surprisingly enough, replacements for Jax lights which are not performing to the customers requirements... Anyone want some used Jax lights? There's quite a few available in these parts....  |  IP: Logged Peter Hall Master Film Handler Posts: 314 From: London, UK Registered: Dec 2000 posted 10-25-2004 02:07 AM                        Hummmmmmmmm.. will think it over ! HOw's the Grovesnor ?  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-25-2004 09:17 AM                     It trudges along, not doing great business I hear, which is a bit sad. Go on, make me an offer for these Jax lights, you know you wanna! There's 2 for Monee, 2 for DP70 and 2 for DP75.  |  IP: Logged Peter Hall Master Film Handler Posts: 314 From: London, UK Registered: Dec 2000 posted 10-25-2004 11:46 AM                        OK - Drinks on me next time you're down this way - but you have to throw in the Monee projectors too !  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-25-2004 11:54 AM                     Actually I have had good luck with the Jaxlights in DP70 with new slits as well  |  IP: Logged Michael Cunningham Expert Film Handler Posts: 186 From: Anchorage, AK Registered: Nov 1999 posted 10-25-2004 12:53 PM                     While the BACP conversion to the Norelco looks quite nice and functional, I noticed a missing component from the "original" sound gear. Where is the little magnification viewport that let you see the illumination playing across the solar cell? I know, I know, it wasn't exactly a real useful feature, but it had "cool" value. Does the LED not provide enough visible light to show up through such a lens? - Mike  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-25-2004 01:24 PM                     Peter, I'll hold you to that, not that I venture that far South of the border unless absiolutely necessary, and I'll gladly throw the Monee projectors anywhere, as long as it's OUT of any of my booths! Gord, out of all the Jaxlights I've removed, I would agree with you they worked best on the DP70, this is simply because the cell is shrouded well away from any stray light. Still not a good enough solution though. Michael, I think (although I'm not sure) that the BACP is a rather different design from the original DP70 rep set, and as such doesn't use any of the original optics, far less the original SVA cell.  |  IP: Logged Lindsay Morris Expert Film Handler Posts: 233 From: Darlington, WA, Australia Registered: Sep 2002 posted 10-31-2004 07:21 PM                     In the process of getting my Eprad Starlet ready for the coming summer season and using an ACL Laser unit rather than a Jaxlight opting for an ACL laser as it seemed to offer the best virtual "drop in" ease of installation. IE. Take out the old exciter and central base connection, slide the ACL unit down into where the exciter base used to be with the DC leads for the laser coming out of the old lampholder base and lock it in place as you would do with a tungsten lamp. In my case I have powered the ACL unit from the existing exciter supply with a small add on board mounted on the exciter lamp bracket with a 3 terminal regulator set at 3.6v output. IF I ever want to go back to Tungsten is just a matter of sliding the laser assembly out and sliding the tungsten lamp in. The suppliers of the ACL unit did not recommend using the exciter supply but I reasoned that it is: (a) Already there. (b) Well filtered. (c) The 3 terminal regs LM 317 are very reliable and precise in maintaining their set voltage. (d) A 5v Zener across the line to the laser unit could act as a safety crowbar and take the reg into shutdown mode IF the volts crept up over 4.5 if a fault occurred. (e) I could still simply use a tungsten lamp IF I ever had to. Setting up of the ACL was easy, just adjust the laser height and azimuth by slackening the small locking screw in the tube that goes into the lampholder and once set carefully locking that into place. I focussed the image onto a piece of white paper taped to the drum just as I do with a tungsten lamp setup/check. Peter Naples noted that they take a bit of setting up and he is spot on here but once set in place are quite stable. When running the Cyan loop Dolby levels on the Eprad, LED displays are almost exactly the same as if I ran the B&W Dolby test loop. There is only a slight difference which equates to just on one FULL turn of the preamp 40 turn trim pots UP if running B&W after setting it for the Cyan loop.... Virtually NO Diffrence in level running the ACL laser with either Cyan or B&W test loops. Did not seem to get anymore signal from either by altering the focus of the slit lens to "tweak" the focus for either type of track. The actual output levels going to the power amps remain the same as the NR boards are doing their job and the Master Vol control stays at the same point. So in theory when I run a Cyan print there will be no perceivable difference between that or Hi magenta or B&W... but I have not been able to get hold of a HiMag Dolby test loop.. doubt whether one actually exists... so do not really know re Hi Magenta stuff... just guessing there. My tests have shown NO virtual difference between a Cyan loop and a B&W loop when using the ACL Laser unit. However, go back to the old tungsten lamp with Cyan and I really have to wind up the proj preamps to achieve the correct Dolby level on the Format board (all 4 LEDs lit). There is certainly not enough grunt left in the Master Vol control to lift the Cyan level up if using a tungsten lamp. Normally I run the Eprad on 5 and probably could raise the power amp faders to compensate but the hum and noise certainly comes up. But with redlight and Cyan the tone is very clean. So for those hesitating on going to a red reader I would not wait around too much longer as I reckon you will be in big piles of poo if you cop a Cyan print out of the blue (pun intended)as most systems will probably not be able to compensate for the certainly lower level. As a "techie" type Indie I did not want the problem of having to stuff about madly trying to source a red light unit after I had experienced a disaster with a Cyan print. I wanted to be ready so that we had a smooth transistion and the ACL laser may have cost me $900(Aus) but I am now confident that Cyan will not give me any grief whatsoever. It did hurt paying out that $900 but it is now done and, as an operating expense, that can be written off against the business tax... same as a new Xenon. Just gotta do it to survive. As well the BXR 10V 5amp exciters are almost impossible to source here in OZ. As to the comment in the thread "Disney to Switch to Cyan" made by Mark Marshall. I do not think that other countries are pointing the finger at America as being the villains in this switch to Cyan. In Australia it really has been the lack of Cyan test loops so that one could evaluate just what was going to happen and that would be where I think the industry has fallen down as to my knowledge there is still NOT supplies of the combined Dolby tone and Pink Noise available in Cyan. It seems totally logical to me that if "the industry moguls" wanted a switch to a new system they should have had all this test film out there and readily available from day ONE not 3 or 4 years down the track as it seems to be in OZ and I suspect in many other countries as well. In that way various industry folk could try and see EXACTLY for themselves what they were in for IF they did not switch to red light sources when Cyan became widespread. Then the concept would have sold itself and possibly demand for Red readers gone up and hopefully the prices came down due to volume sales. The best thing ATLAB did in Oz as to hand out samples of the Cyan track at the Movie Convention 2 years ago and that got a few of us really going.. others are still fence sitting hoping it is all a "furphy" and will go away. It won't Lindsay  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-31-2004 08:24 PM                     quote: Michael Cunningham While the BACP conversion to the Norelco looks quite nice and functional, I noticed a missing component from the "original" sound gear. Where is the little magnification viewport that let you see the illumination playing across the solar cell? Michael, That area of the sound head casting is machined away in order to attach a plate with a mount for the scanner itself. The BACP is really the best route to upgrading the DP-70's analog sound reproducer. I've done close to 30 of these since they became available. The view window was fine back in the mono days but not sufficient for aligning stereo. Note that we also split the lay on lateral guide rioller and spring load it so there is no weave of the track as its being scanned. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged James Falloon Film Handler Posts: 72 From: Wigram, Christchurch, New Zealand Registered: Oct 2003 posted 11-01-2004 02:31 AM                     Ok, I've got a question for the film Gods, could somebody please suggest what would be the best option for our two gaumont kalee gk37 projectors. I know that they are old, but the damn things just keep on going. Is there something that will fit, or is cyan the final nail in the coffin for these old girls. I'm not sure what sound heads they are so I posted a pic. Any advise much appreciated  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 11-01-2004 08:47 AM                     There are quite a few GK37 projectors in operation in Brazil, both on existing pedestal or remounted to new consoles. Most have been outfitted with either Component Engineering readers and custom brackets for the LED or laser set-ups...it can be done.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-01-2004 07:00 PM                     Here's a picture of a BACP unit installed in the basement of a Simplex projector:  |  IP: Logged Edward Jurich Master Film Handler Posts: 305 From: Las Vegas USA Registered: Jul 2003 posted 11-02-2004 09:17 AM                     Noticed I had posted a repeat of what someone else posted.  |  IP: Logged

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