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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: Miramax Goes Cyan
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Ted Costas
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 119
From: Hollywood, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000
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posted 08-19-2004 02:29 PM
Let's get back to the green, cyan that is.
John P., I have heard that the labs may save some money once everybody is printing in cyan. That for the next few years as the transition is taking place, it will be more expensive for them, changing filter packs, etc. Is that true?
And to answer the previous question about the $$$ saved trickling down to the theatre owners... maybe. If ther studios work the cost savings into their deals with the labs, and the theatre owners work those cost savings into their deals with the studios... Woop, there it is. But by the time that happens, Digital Cinema will be, well, who knows.
Dolby, Dolby, Dolby.
Your guys are funny! Good string.
Yours, Ted
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-20-2004 05:48 AM
Everybody on both sides must be tired of beating this dead horse, & especially being invited back to look at a glossy one-sided brocure we've read before:
quote: John Pytlak
Ah...no Hydroquinone.
Ah...no sodium hydroxide (lye/caustic soda).
No manufacturing industry is expected to do its work without potentially hazardous chemicals, with or without terrifying-sounding names. It's that manufacturer's need AND responsibility to manage the hazards, & whether or not that management is done by the manufacturer to the detriment of the consumer & making the consumer pay for it is a matter of sales strategy.
SODIUM HYDROXIDE?
quote: John Pytlak
Ah...much less fresh water used to process print film.
A financial boon for the labs! Less money spent on reclamation! Unless they've been maliciously dumping it previously when they should have been reclaiming it. That surely doesn't sound like the Earth First boys that have been making the announcements!
quote: John Pytlak
Ah...no soundtrack degradation from application problems.
Ah...no silver blotches or bleeding in the picture area.
That keeps being presented, & there's no way to know whether its motivation is just hopefully manipulative sales talk or fear of complete reasoning.
Soundtrack degradation from silver application problems will go away! Well, duh, because silver application will go away. Is the intent to make people think that soundtrack degradation will go away? Think of the problems you've seen in the soundtrack areas, then the printing problems in the image areas on film, & now think that those problems will be transferred to the soundtrack. I think NOBODY is going to be reckless enough to assert that quality control on cyan tracks will be tighter than the silver tracks.
quote: John Pytlak
Ah...much less print waste.
Good news for the labs!
quote: John Pytlak
Ah...better print quality.
That's completely unsupported. You may be eliminating some splash, but the soundtrack is still part of the print.
quote: John Pytlak
With over 10 Billion feet of prints made worldwide annually, the environmental advantages are very real.
To the labs! They pay less. This still boils down to a page full of systemic issues, with one side just printing 'environmental' in red in hope that speed readers will only see that. The labs save on environmental costs that would have been their responsibility anyway, some boxes & licenses get sold, the product (the optical track) is lessened in quality due to lower performance (don't pull up red readers vs. tungsten while conveniently omitting the pre-existing IR) & poorer compatibility, the end users must pay the cost to re-equip for a new format.
quote: Ted Costas
And to answer the previous question about the $$$ saved trickling down to the theatre owners... maybe. If ther studios work the cost savings into their deals with the labs, and the theatre owners work those cost savings into their deals with the studios... Woop, there it is. But by the time that happens, Digital Cinema will be, well, who knows.
So not only is any possibility of savings for the end user via manufacturing cost reduction inconsiderable, it is *acknowledged* that this is expected be a brief period during the decline of film as exhibition? So in this shortened transition stage, there's a huge ramp up in cost to the consumer, & a big financial windfall for the labs & manufacturers as they ride the train those last few miles out of town?
quote: John Pytlak
Mixed inventory of cyan dye, and cyan+magenta+silver tracks requires preparing two different sets of soundtrack negatives since the XM optimization densities are different. Obviously an added expense and another chance of mixup.
And another example of just bringing up the incompatibility problems when it's just to completely eliminate the existing format.
quote: Dominic Case
Cyan tracks are here. It's a fact. "Get over it" indeed.
And that's been the position to get them implemented & eliminate critical evaluation.
I agree that this accomplishes nothing. The practical folks at the tech end of current-release theaters that had red readers pushed by the mfrs who had them pushed by the cyan track committee realistically don't have any more need for this discussion, the exhibitors that got snookered are there already, the issues of compatibility remain unacknowledged because of sales push, the issues of the financial opportunism remain unacknowledged because of corporate PR, nothing happens except somebody as he said puts on his Cosa Nostra hat again & predicts another studio will be releasing in cyan & there's a returning, uncatalyzed outpouring of the same slanted promotional material.
Agreed, it's aggravating, nothing new is happening here.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 08-20-2004 02:17 PM
quote: Dan Lyons
I know modern stocks have better dyes, etc, etc. But nothing beats silver for permanence.)
Right on both counts. Modern print film dyes are much more stable, and silver images are even more so. But even silver images can be attacked by residual thiosulfate, sulfur compounds, etc., and need to be processed and stored properly.
Remember, a release print is not the archived element, unless nothing better is available. Silver soundtrack application will be retained for 16mm prints, and will very likely remain available for 35mm prints intended as archived elements. As you know, the digital tracks have been dye-only since their inception. The sound negatives on polyester base are a primary archival element for today's soundtracks.
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-23-2004 06:30 AM
As Dan points out, more & more keeps getting pushed off the boat as 'irrelevant'.
You've got to have a red reader to play cyan tracks. The folks who are already on high magenta & don't worry about sibilant distortion on sibilant tracks don't care. But the continued running gag of "Don't you worry never fear, Robin Hood will soon be here" of previously examined empty or misleading claims is infuriating.
The progression is always the same:
1. Broad general claims of different benefits & benign method of introduction
2. The particulars of one of the general claims are examined
3. The particulars of that general claim are found unsubstantiated
4. The move is made back to a generality, as examination of the preceding specifics of that general claim are directed to be abandoned because another general benefit is gained
5. Goto 3.
I'm not beating up John, I'm like everyone else tired of just baiting an instant replay with the general happy claims from the beneficiaries of the cyan track which when examined evaporate, leaving only the hard facts which aren't beneficial to all & benefitting only a few.
The arguments about the longevity of prints are now being claimed to only include "archival elements".
Soundtrack reproduction improvements due to reverse scan PRE-EXISTED, & were not a package with the cyan changeover.
http://www.kodak.com/AU/en/motion/news/caseSoundtracksP.shtml
"To be honest, I am not convinced that there will be a significant improvement in sound quality by matching cyan tracks to red readers, although in theory there could be. "
But they're not. They are known not to be, from measurement & listening. For cyan/red readers vs. tungsten/IR/silver tracks, that's acknowledged by the cyan group, & that Dolby noise reduction should thus be integrated as part of the cyan package.
Then the support arguments dismissing degradation of fidelity of silver tracks on red readers, measurements show sibilant distortion, cyan partisans degrade from dismissing measurement to "golden ears" tests of someone who says it's "acceptable", then when others have noticed the distortion also, it cannot be acknowledged by the cyan merchants. That's why we have measurement in the first place, objectivity & proof, which is NOT part of the cyan implacement campaign.
The environmental issues are an entire bald misdirection.
http://www.kodak.com/AU/en/motion/news/caseSoundtracksP.shtml
"But, of course, this will benefit the environment for everyone, not just the lab. Water saving is particularly important because so many parts of the world are facing water restrictions. Country theatres that haven't changed their equipment are holding up the whole industry and standing in the way of water conservation."
Which is an utter crock. Conserving water in Ocala, FL doesn't affect Tucson, AZ in any way. It's not even a problem in Ocala. It does reduce manufacturing expense in either location, though.
It infuriates me because I'm very involved with environmental issues, especially water quality, & this kind of crap just undermines environmental conservation groups. You can read Steve Guttag's aggravation as proceeding from an insult to reasoning & intelligence because he says "Enviro-wackos". That absurd & misdirecting stuff absolutely is.
And contaminated water is reclaimed by ANY industry before pumping it out, or they're just nasty scum.
Some things are plain, stand up to scrutiny by all, & there's no argument:
http://www.kodak.com/AU/en/motion/news/caseSoundtracksP.shtml
"The big advantages are in the laboratory. By eliminating the applicator, we have one less processing solution to mix and manage, we reduce our water usage, and we reduce reprints and down time due to applicator problems."
As well as the benefits to manufacturers, people who sell licenses to use the technologies, & can claim any PR from it.
I don't think everyone trying desperately to justify the cyan track mandate is a malicious servant of the evil empire or something. The evasion seems more personal in "those who are more obstinate in following their own course, than strong in justifying it."
Take it to the cyan tracks thread, this has all been said there, it's been done there, there is nothing new here, stop baiting. Even the ones who don't care about the implementation are cynical, you can smell it.
--------
"Break it up son, joke's over."
- Topper for a running gag that went on a couple of times more than needed in some Tex Avery cartoon
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