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Topic: Miramax Goes Cyan

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 08-23-2004 11:34 AM

I'm only jumping in on this one to make a point about a near bogus statement that Dominic made (actually it was a question)...

If a print fades in the picture (any color) to some degree our brains will correct for color imbalance and quickly the viewer will not notice/pay attention to the shift in color. However, the sound system will not correct for any change. Thus some fading in the picture does not equate to some fading on the soundtrack.

Steve

[ 08-23-2004, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-23-2004 12:55 PM

For traditional cyan+magenta+silver tracks on pre-1982 prints, when the old cyan dyes faded, they would affect track performance, since their spectral densities fell well within the spectral sensitivity of a tungsten "white light" reader.

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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 08-23-2004 08:47 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
a near bogus statement that Dominic made

Steve, I don't make bogus statements - not even near!

Colour dye fade isn't simply a matter of an overall shift. When a dye fades, it is in proportion to the amount of dye present in any part of the image. Clear areas of film contain no dye so DO NOT CHANGE. Therefore, the white reference remains the same, while darker tones show an increasing amount of colour shift. The faded sample that Dan posted is never going to look right to anyone.

And secondly, while it's true that we do forget about an overall bias up to a point, it's also true that some viewers are more aware of 'absolute' colour than others. Most colour graders can readily pick a one or two point shift in a print without any reference for example. I hope you aren't suggesting that it's enough to cater only for the less discriminatory viewers in an audience.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 08-23-2004 09:02 PM

It isn't a matter of catering to only the less discriminatory, it is a fact, even the more intuned will also suffer from their brains telling them the color is not as bad until they have the opportunity to get a good reference for their eyes/brain to work from again. The longer they look at the wrong color space, the less they will be able to tell what is excatly wrong about it. Naturally, when a print has suffered to the extent that virtually only one color remains...the brain has an impossible task of making it look correct but it will try (failingly)

The point you miss though is that while with the picture you have several factors in play that relate to how the human mind works, the sound reader does not enjoy that complexity and will progressively play a more notably distorted sound.

You simply can't compare the two to say if you accept one you have to accept the other (or vice-versa).

Steve

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Ed Inman
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 103
From: Jackson, Mississippi USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 08-23-2004 09:47 PM

Well, just for my .02:

Small, limited platform "arthouse" films which Miramax historically is known for should be the last prints to go cyan because they are the ones most likely to end up being screened by museums, coffee shops, local film societies, etc. which are the least equipped and least funded to change over.

And how many prints of something like "Shaolin Soccer" does Miramax even make? Maybe 20 total? Some savings to the environment!

If cyan is so important why not do it on 3,000-print plex blockbusters like Spiderman where it might actually do some good for the environment and let those of us in zero-budget offbeat venues burn our exciter bulbs in peace?

Ed

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-23-2004 10:20 PM

quote: Ed Inman
And how many prints of something like "Shaolin Soccer" does Miramax even make? Maybe 20 total? Some savings to the environment!

If cyan is so important why not do it on 3,000-print plex blockbusters like Spiderman where it might actually do some good for the environment and let those of us in zero-budget offbeat venues burn our exciter bulbs in peace?

As noted previously, dual inventory is a stopgap measure, and having to do both types of track will likely add to costs. The environmental benefits really kick in when the processing machines can be reconfigured to eliminate the first fixer, the soundtrack redeveloper, and the water wash off.

16mm prints will still have silver application, and 35mm prints intended as archival copies could be done by labs specializing in that work if dye+silver tracks are desired.

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Dominic Case
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 131
From: Sydney NSW Australia
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 08-23-2004 11:14 PM

quote: William Hooper
Conserving water in Ocala, FL doesn't affect Tucson, AZ in any way. It's not even a problem in Ocala.

I'm sorry, I've no idea where Ocala and Tucson are, nor if they have theatres (or water).

When I spoke about country theatres that haven't converted their projectors, I was specifically thinking of the Australian situation, as that was very much the context in which the interview was given. It IS a fact that drought is seriously affecting large areas of rural Australia. It also affects most of the capital cities at present. It IS a fact that - at the time of the interview - no distributors appeared convinced that enough theatres ran red LED readers for them to have enough confidence to order cyan dye track prints. It IS a fact that at Atlab we recycle as much water as we can, in fact we are more advanced in that technology than any other release printing lab in the world. However, water conservation, chemical safety, and all the other issues that go into running any manufacturing operation, can't be addressed with one tactic only. It's not possible to recycle 100% of water, so obviously the less that is needed in the process, the less is consumed. And I'm getting tired of ever-more extreme arguments that so doggedly refuse to recognise the right of manufacturers to update one piece of technology to take advantage of advances in another related aspect.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 08-24-2004 06:30 AM

Personally, I'm glad you are getting tired. The cyan crap IS creating real problems for those that will continue to run older films and for films that will still be producde the old way. There is no practical solution to accommodate both applicated and non-applicated prints. Going to cyan, while a reduction in quality is not an update, more of a potential savings to labs (certainly a desirable goal for any business to save money where ever it can).

Steve

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 08-24-2004 12:12 PM

What a pity a more radical solution was not considered such as adding a layer to print stock that would develop into an IR blocking dye (perhaps exposed via UV) or modifying the existing dye structure to be IR absorbing.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 08-24-2004 12:30 PM

quote: Steve Kraus
What a pity a more radical solution was not considered such as adding a layer to print stock that would develop into an IR blocking dye (perhaps exposed via UV)

Sounds like a good way to increase the cost of prints.

quote: Steve Kraus
or modifying the existing dye structure to be IR absorbing.

We already make some pretty tough demands on dyes produced in chromogenic emulsions; adding an extra one, for little benefit, and possibly causing various other problems in the process doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one.

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Ted Costas
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 119
From: Hollywood, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 08-24-2004 07:09 PM

Just when I thought we were all having a good time, somebody has to run in and splash application all over it... you know, that black stuff that enters into the image area every once in a while. Actually, on 6% to 11% of Dolby's print checking statistics this is the case. Or is that another "baseless claim?"

So you want me to shut up about cyan? You want me (and John) to "get over it". Cute reference, I must admit.

I'll make you a deal (Dominic and W. Hooper), I'll only start a new topic when another studio commits. Remember, you don't have to jump into the discussion if it is "old and tired." The Cyan threads will get shorter and shorter, and soon, in a measly 7 more topics we'll be done with it (even though some think we already are... I guess that is a good thing).

I'll try and keep my info new and fresh.

Although Miramax coming out is "new and fresh."

Yours, Ted

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-24-2004 07:42 PM

quote: Steve Kraus
What a pity a more radical solution was not considered such as adding a layer to print stock that would develop into an IR blocking dye (perhaps exposed via UV) or modifying the existing dye structure to be IR absorbing.

Been there, done that. There are not many stable dyes that absorb well into the infrared. Another film manufacturer tried a cyan dye that had "extended" spectral density into the near infrared almost 20 years ago. As I recall, it was not very successful.

The spectral output of red LED readers is a very good match to the spectral dye densities of the cyan dyes used in print films today.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 08-24-2004 08:17 PM

No Ted...that is CAP code...not application [Razz]

Steve

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