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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Author
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Topic: CYAN Finally breaking through
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-06-2005 12:16 AM
Only if both were optimized for red readers. Then it's a ringer for "no difference". Remember:
quote: John Pytlak
The optimum density for traditional (cyan + magenta + silver) tracks was different for white light (tungsten) readers and red LED readers, meaning that a print optimized for one, would have some distortion on the other. Cross-modulation distortion may cause voice passages to contain an excessive amount of sibilant distortion. That is, many of the sibilant speech sounds (s, sh, ch, z, etc.) and some of the voiced and voiceless stop sounds (B, P, and T) will be distorted and spitty.
It's another summer of film series running silver tracks on red readers, & the musicals (which are what put butts in the seats) are affected most - they sound like crap in the upper freqs. The assumption is made & sometimes even announced that "old movies just sound that way", & it's more attendance dropoff for summer movies. You first run guys think you're having a tough year; three theaters running classic films on amazing! new! high-tech! install-them-or-go-dark! red readers are having a second-summer slump of about 1/2 attendance. And yes, I heard audience comments about the sound in the lobbies last year.
Now that mandated red readers have made film in classic venues sound so much crappier, it looks like the only way to bring presentation back up is installing a (Dolby-partnered surely! Or Kodak!) digital projector. What an interesting progression.
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-06-2005 07:10 AM
quote: Steve Guttag
Cyan tracks seem to also be a bit inconsistant...some sound okay...some a bit noisy and thin. But then again, cyan was never about quality.
Inconsistant how? From title to title, print to print, reel to reel, or within a reel?
Still haven't seen a single frame of cyan film, but after a gap of three months I'm doing a couple of projection shifts this Friday and Saturday, and two of the films are recent, mainstream ones, so maybe one of them will have it.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-07-2005 12:32 AM
Hence, in all the booths I work, we'll keep the white readers until the cyan comes home. In the one venue that I work that HAS red excitement, the sound unfortunately can't be locked down as it is in a booth -- it's an outdoor venue and the cinema processor outputs to the sound guy and his massive system. And what does he say EVERY sound check we do for EVERY old beat vintage prints? "Damn Frankie, that sounds like ka-ka." And he is one of the best; he can make anything sound awesome -- except, he reminds me, "essy" sibilence. It's tempting enough to pull them and put in the old unrevered, unscrewed- screwed-around-with white exciters.
Next show we have -- THE SOUND OF MUSIC. Probably get between 3,000, 4,000 people. Just makes me sad they are all going to have to listen to. "The hillssssss are alive with the sssssound of mussssssic." ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-07-2005 01:26 AM
quote: Louis Bornwasser
As regards mixed prints the RED LED is supposed to play all prints, old, new, cyan, magenta very well. Data is on www.dye-tracks.com.
The problem was identified very early, & the incompatibility being insurmountable, was actively not furthermore discussed or publicized by the Cyan Track Committee, the purpose of which was to get cyan tracks & red readers universally adopted.
"Following a show of Red Alert, Andrew Wales presented some examples of variable density
analogue tracks printed normally, with high magenta, and cyan dye. For each track type there
were three examples at slightly different densities. The subject matter was Moulin Rouge
dating from the early 50s and the tests were played using a red light reader. As expected
the normal tracks sounded particularly poor, with very quiet, distorted, and spitty sound"
-- from http://www.dyetracks.org/reports/minutes/2001/TechnicolorFilmService.meeting.min.0301.html
The problem is distracting with sibilants in speech, but in music with complex harmonics & waveforms at those frequencies, it's grating. Violins, cymbal crashes, upper end of the piano - distortion that leads to fatigue. As far as summer classic movies go, it's musicals that put butts in the seats, they attract a predominantly female demo (who consent or bring dates, families, etc.), & females were shown by Bell Labs to be most sensitive to distortion in upper frequencies & developing 'listener fatigue'.
The Cyan Tracks Committee were always fast to make global statements such as 'this will be an improvement across the board as theaters must now replace tungsten readers with improved reverse-scan technology'; but the response to the XM distortion question is only that soundtracks must be optimized, evading the statement that theaters running library titles with silver tracks on red readers will have degraded sound quality, distorted in music & speech sibilants. First run venues, install or die! Classic films venues, kiss off!
The topic was beat to death here in the this thread, this thread, & elsewhere.
For first-run & theaters that don't also show rep/library titles, the transition was made less noticeable with high-magenta.
quote:
While with the traditional exciter lamp an adjustment can be made by simply turning the lamp, the new readers can't be adjusted at all!?
This sounds more like a problem in adjustment at the sound processor or the A-chain generally than red readers particularly, unless there's a red reader on projector 1 & tungsten forward-scan reader on projector 2, in which case the difference in response may make one sound 'louder' than the other.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-08-2005 06:55 AM
quote: Daryl C. W. O'Shea
A carefully eq'd (around 3-6kHz) compressor side-chain, with the compressor set for a fairly fast attack and moderate release time, a hard knee and about 6:1 compression (resulting in 3 to 6 dB of compression to the sibilance), should take care of the majority of any sibilance.
Daryl, compression might lessen the level of the errant frequency, but louder than normal "SSSS" sounds are not only louder than normal in this situation, but they are also distorted. No amount of compression will fix that. I know that distorted ess sound; it's teeth-grindingly unpleasant.
I am still trying to find out from whence this print of SOUND OF MUSIC is coming from that they booked. If it is a print that has been struck recently, then hopefully it should be optimized properly for red and standard SRD tracks. Thing is, I haven't heard of any new SOM prints remixed with optical stereo sound, be it any of the sound letters: A, SR, SRD, DTS, SDDS. My biggest nightmare is that our audience will be treated not only to distorted esses, but to MONO sound as well.
The last time I ran this title it was in the late 80s and all that was left were battered mono prints with horribly distorted soundtracks -- prints that I am sure were lab reject that Fox gave to Films Inc. In fact, the sound was so badly distorted that I assumed it had to be our system, until I looked really close at the soundtrack. In the church/marriage sequence, with the church organ bellowing out the instrumental organ version of "How Do You Solve A Problem Like Maria," under a loupe you could see that the soundtrack hills were actually flat -- square-waved off, while the valleys were completely disconnected, i.e., the zero point of each wave was not connected to the one before or after it. Gee, maybe if I am lucky I'll get one of THOSE prints. Then I won't have any choice but to jump out of the tower. Or, perhaps try something equally as ludicrous -- try to sync the DVD sound to the film. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Anyone know off hand of a DVD player that allows you to change the speed but not the pitch of the playback?....wouldn't THAT be a bitch!
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