Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Improve 35mm (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Improve 35mm
Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted 03-02-2006 08:12 PM      Profile for Ron Curran   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Curran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This string was never meant to be a 70 vs 35 punch-up. 70 is superior in every way. There are producers everywhere on the planet right now who are planning to shoot film. Most are planning to frame it 1.85 or Super 35.
Get hold of them and convince them that, for the sake of future generations, they MUST change their minds and shoot in 65mm. If you succeed, we will all be eternally grateful. Please give me plenty of warning so I can get a good deal on 70mm gear.
In the production world, the film frame in the camera has become smaller. The latest Kodak In Camera magazine profiles 2.35 feature film shoots. All were Super 35. Reasons stated include, in one case, the economy of 3-perf “a 20% saving” and, with 4-perf, the preference of digital effects people for freedom to move within the frame and, in another production, the desire to use spherical lenses.
So more productions are using a smaller area of the 35mm frame for 1.85 and 2.35. I was presenting a case for increasing that. If we are talking blow ups, I would rather see one from a 5/35CS neg giving 590 square mm than a Super 35 crop of about 260 square mm.
I agree with the proposal in “The splendour of 70mm” and 65mm filming. Bring it on. Get your business model sorted out for large theatres with giant screens.
In the meantime, all I am asking is for a feasible, affordable and better 35 format for the 6000 or so productions we are likely to see before the rebirth of 65 and the digital apocalypse. One small step for mankind. Is that so unreasonable? Optimised 35 will help smaller community cinemas and the multiplexes. Who can afford the real estate to have a multiplex with twenty 60-foot screens? A mix will be necessary.
One of the big problems we face is that film capturing and projection equipment (every gauge) is too damn reliable. There is a far more lucrative future in supplying digital boxes that none of us can fix and that will be superseded every few years. It is all part of consolidation.

 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-02-2006 08:46 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think 35mm projection is now in some real danger, in light of recent business developments to get large numbers of 2K video projectors installed. In terms of theaters using film projection, large format venues may be the only ones left doing it a few years from now.

I'm not sure how that can be stopped, especially if distributors and other parties are paying for (or at least help pay for) all those video projectors.

In the end, the showdown is going to be film versus video on the production end. At this point, HDTV cameras (even those 24P cameras made by Sony and Panavision) can't really match good 35mm photography -even Super35 stuff.

4K video projection in theaters can give 35mm origination another steep advantage over video. I think it will be a long time before we see 4K resolution video cameras hitting the scene.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-02-2006 08:51 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Joseph Fink
and it aparently only requires a $10,000 retrofit per projector.


Maxi-Vision is a great idea... nothing new really. Its apparent that he got the idea back from his old Aavid days and from the drove of high end 3 perf cameras that already exist to shoot television shows. $10,000.00 is a ludicrous figure to say the least to convert a projector, especially if they would want this format to fly on any scale. In fact thats more money than most projector-soundhead combos sell for! All it takes is a 12 tooth sprocket, new sprocket pad assy, freshly cut aperture plate, and a larger diameter pulley on the drive motor... about 300.00 in parts retail! Sadly SRD will not function at this linear speed so this system will have to be DTS based or a really good SR based analog system that would easily blow digital playback to simthereens! It's analog track could easily have a clean 30 khz frequency response at that film speed! Inaudible high frequency control tones could be used for audio steering purposes above 25 khz to create a psudo EX effect.

Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted 03-02-2006 09:26 PM      Profile for Ron Curran   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Curran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maxivision48 is 1.85 (pity, but there is a fix) and they say they have a patented sound system but they are having trouble getting support from the industry. One of the cost factors would be a gizmo that lets the projector change from 3 to 4 perf on the fly.

 |  IP: Logged

David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 03-02-2006 09:31 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
about 300.00 in parts retail
Plus 18% if you use a credit card?

SORRY MARK, I COULDN'T HELP IT. [uhoh] [Razz] [Big Grin]

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-02-2006 09:47 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
I think 35mm projection is now in some real danger, in light of recent business developments to get large numbers of 2K video projectors installed. In terms of theaters using film projection, large format venues may be the only ones left doing it a few years from now.
Worldwide there are well over 100,000 theatre screens using 35mm film. Today, seven years after all the hype at ShoWest 1999, Digital Cinema screens still number well under 1000. The business case for Digital Cinema still needs to be fully developed, and will face challenges. Kodak is becoming a major player in the world of Digital Cinema, but sees more of an evolution than a revolution ahead.

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 03-02-2006 10:28 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Joseph Fink
What about MaxiVision 48, which Roger Ebert championed a few years back I remember. Invented by Dean Goodhill, film moves at 48 FPS (with a 24FPS mode for low budget filmmakers) and it aparently only requires a $10,000 retrofit per projector.

As far as the theatre end is concerned, $10K sounds reasonable. But for the studios making the prints, it would be half again as expensive per print. Multiply that by thousands of prints per title, and you have a much larger cost. And the distributors seemed determined to lower that cost, regardless of quality.

 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-03-2006 09:12 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The biggest problem facing MaxiVision is getting any filmmakers to originate using the process. One could have both 48fps and 24fps prints made from a MaxiVision film -if anyone would just make a movie using the process in the first place. Right now there just doesn't seem to be any desire to do so on the part of the filmmaking community.

If any filmmakers are wanting to use different processes, most are considering video rather than higher quality film formats. Pretty unfortunate.

 |  IP: Logged

Ramon Lamarca Marques
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 186
From: Edgware, England, UK
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted 03-04-2006 05:37 PM      Profile for Ramon Lamarca Marques   Email Ramon Lamarca Marques   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Koutsoumis
I've seen a few Technicolor prints of films made in VistaVision in recent times and you just think "how did go from this back to 4/35?"
The answer is money, distributors did not want to pay the extra expense of producing dye transfer Technicolor prints, even though they were far superior then and Paramount did not want to pay the extra expense on film. If 65mm filming came back, perhaps Technicolor could bring back their superb dye transfer reduction prints for 35mm presentations.

I do not see digital as evolution. Digital is another way of showing films. If film projection disappears is because of saving money, not because of evolution. We will miss film projection when it disappears. [Frown]

They forget that any improvement in digital projection for cinemas will also mean for home cinemas. You will get all of those DLP home cinema projectors being sold as see it the same way as in your local theatre. Cinemas have to move away from tellys if they want to do business, but it looks that they are becoming tellys. It's a sad world.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-05-2006 10:36 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is just one of at least 50 reasons why the distributers want to go "other directions" for exhibition. I'm not a fan of D-Cinema but there is a reality side to it all.

 -

Regarding improving 35mm.....

Those of you that have never run 35mm dailies printed right off the camera negative don't have a clue as to how good 35mm really is today. Its quite spectaculuar!

Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 03-06-2006 12:07 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thatsa lotsa "poly" heading back to the recyclers. A lot cheaper to stamp DVD's than to print film

Plus, with the demise of the "projectionist" and the increase of the 'booth operator', 'UsherBees', and the 'BoothClowns', this is the obvious reason for the increased interest in DC cinema.

Of this interest is that the customer, who goes to the "Goo-gooplex" are not getting the accurate and enjoyable presentation every time they attend. Also, with these growing complaints, refunds are issued, thus lost revenue is the result.

Megacompanies are screaming to find a quick and easy solution for this problem and the easy way out is for the usage of DC - instead of properly training procedures. Plus,let alone having to pay better wages for the fully trained employees which the Megacompanies don't want to do in the first place.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-06-2006 03:03 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Old prints should get recycled. The silver is recovered, and the polyester film base gets made into new plastic:

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/bd/0900688a801a50bd/KES60_ENG.pdf

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/hse/waste.jhtml?id=0.1.4.5.18.6&lc=en

quote:
Many film distributors assume responsibility for disposing of release prints after they are no longer needed. Many of them have contracted with FPC, Inc., a Kodak company located in Hollywood, Calif., which certifies destruction of film content and recycles the base or burns it as an alternate source of clean energy. This service protects the environment as well as the rights of copyright holders by ensuring that worn or unneeded prints do not fall into the wrong hands for unlawful purposes. If your film distributor isn't familiar with the services offered by , you might want to suggest that they contact them at 323-468-5778.



 |  IP: Logged

John Koutsoumis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 261
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 03-07-2006 05:55 AM      Profile for John Koutsoumis   Email John Koutsoumis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Those of you that have never run 35mm dailies printed right off the camera negative don't have a clue as to how good 35mm really is today. Its quite spectacular!


For sure. When I run screenings of short films on occasions in the last few years some of those prints are straight of the negative and the images just leap off the screen and of course they are super sharp too. Added with tons of light provided by the Carbon Arcs ( [thumbsup] [Cool] ) i'm always left gob smacked. Pity you don't see that in the Multiplexes.

Back in the good old days didn't they strike all the release prints from the camera negative?

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-07-2006 07:12 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Koutsoumis
Back in the good old days didn't they strike all the release prints from the camera negative?

Duplicate negatives have been used for release printing for many decades. There is great risk in using the spliced original negative for producing release prints -- damage is very likely if even one of the hundreds of splices breaks in the printer, or if a misthread causes a scratch or other damage. Although printing originals are cleaned frequently, some dirt particles eventually become embedded in the emulsion, and may not be completely removable. Yet some producers (where print runs are relatively small) will not invest in the protection duplicate negatives offer, and make release prints directly from the original negative. Today, some "Bollywood" films still do this.

Early color duplication films (like EASTMAN Color Intermediate Film 5253) were quite grainy, and produced a noticeable degradation of image quality. More recent films like KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Film 2242 can produce duplicate negatives that yield prints almost indistinguishable from direct prints --- the Kodak SMPTE presentations that introduced the new generations of intermediate film actually showed "split screen" images where most experts could not see any loss in image quality.

One of the major reasons for increased unsteadiness and loss of sharpness is the practice of using continuous contact printing for all stages of duplication, so the correct short-pitch to long-pitch perforation relationship is not maintained for all printing steps. Correct practice is to only contact print short-pitch to long-pitch films, and use a pin-registered step printer for printing the master positive to the duplicate negative. Unfortunately, ever tighter production schedules often don't leave time for labs to "do it right" on the slower step printers.

 |  IP: Logged

Larry Myers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: Herndon, VA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 03-07-2006 10:01 PM      Profile for Larry Myers         Edit/Delete Post 
May I point out many decades could mean as late as 1985 but more then likely means around 1970. This is about the time an improvement came in both film and processing. Actually Kodak has several milestones in film and processing improvement.

It seems to me the first big improvement was around 1965. Next was around the very early 70's. Then about 1988 and the last around 2000 with the Vision stock series. It's the same as still photo improvement series like the jump from Kodachrome 10, Kodachrome 25, Kodachrome II, Kodachrome-X and so on. Likewise Ektachromes E1 E2 E4 E6 Also Kodacolor P-122 C-22 C-41 and so on.

This is just from memory. I am sure John knows the exact dates and there maybe one or two I have missed.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.