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Author Topic: Input needed about those Long Play Towers (Kintone) Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-31-2007 09:22 PM                     Mike, it really depends on the venue and the funds. The range on the costs projection equipment is really VERY large. Compare an FP38ECII with all options to say a PK60D. One is in excess of 10-fold the cost of the other from the same company. Their feature set is also VERY different. Even further, one is probably unusable for the other's use, yet both do run 35mm film well. If a non-profit gets a grant or a donation...that pretty much limits the amount one can spend on that without further fund raising...quality or no. A for-profit business will always have to weight the extra cost of something (for quality, perceived or real) versus the profit they will gain from the extra expendature. A failing most business people make is that they have a hard time figuring out how much business they lost by a inadequate level of quality (perceived or real) to justify spending more. Unfortunately everything really takes away from quality...very little can be boasted about adding to it and if it can be boasted, IT IS "marquee value." Things like 70mm, or Digital or Stadium seating...and such. Boasting Kinoton will not likely increase ticket sales that would turn into popcorn. However, I maintain that improved projection and sound, DOES keep customers and gets referrals to keep/increase ticket sales which turn into popcorn sales. However, you are absolutely right that $2000 over the life of the projector...is only $40/year for 50-years or even only $200/year for a short installation of only 10-years. Based on the environment described, the Kinoton FP25D/E (E would be steadier...but even more expensive) is the "correct" choice but they can either afford it or not. As to the Dollar/Euro thing...when the Euro first started and we went away from DMs...Kinoton became rather inexpensive (as compared to similarly equipped USA machines) since the dollar was notably stronger than the Euro...my how times have changed in just a few years.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 05-31-2007 09:52 PM                        quote: Scott Norwood Is a SWORD the same thing as a double-MUT? Or are they different? Other than the slow rewind time, the double-MUT seems to be gentle on film and takes up little space. A sword uses the same reel-powering mechanisms as the Double-Mut. It also has a powered 2,000 foot spindle for makeup/teardown. All of the ones I have/had have automation units, very similar to co-operators. Swords could be configured to operate by themselves, or in pairs. One set I used to have was able to control a bi-directional Century projector, supposedly rewinding its film while the other was playing. My understanding is that you could make the booth a hands-off operation, popular with single-staff porn operators. I never heard anyone say the rewind concept worked very well, though. I always liked the Sword. Clutch-type takeups don't provide constant tension, putting a lot of stress at the beginning of a reel, and being pretty loose by the end. The Sword/Double-Mut "powered spindle" system was constant throughout... even with those huge, 4-foot double feature reels.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-03-2007 02:52 PM                        Yes, Michael, I certainly do read the posts -- every word, especially when the guys are good enough to take time to answer a question I asked. And not for nuttin, but you have been known to wax poetic in your posts on occasion, and I don't make fun of you! The Kinotone is just beyond the budget limits of this project. I can't hand the administration a proposal that will make them just walk away and leave me with nothing. Going with a Christie will be fine and I won't have to walk around with my head down in shame. And Stephen, as for second hand equipment -- that's what I would always consider to be a viable option -- I work in four venues that all were outfitted with used stuff to no apparant disadvantage. But, unfortunately, when dealing with a performing arts center that is regulated by its parent college bi-laws which are regulated by the City of New York which is governed by the regulatory comptroller of the State of New York, buying secondhand, even though in the end it can save the tax payers lots of money, is verboten and against about a half dozen laws and regs -- we simply can't do it. But I will still go with the Kinotone tower; the savings alone in not needing to double the lens component (for all 5 formats) will be substantial, even though it will preclude duel strip 3D, which was also an idea bandied about.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-03-2007 03:07 PM                     ernaman makes a nice little package as well of a long play on a sword type base with the pix head on top [ 06-03-2007, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Gordon McLeod ]  |  IP: Logged Bill Enos Film God Posts: 2081 From: Richmond, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 06-04-2007 08:12 PM                     It seems to me that a fifty year plan isn't going to pan out at this point in time, ten or fifteen years at most will be as long as the machine will be in use, and at that, film use will taper to non existence in the last several years.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-05-2007 07:55 AM                        The Ernemann looks sweet, but are they still being made (remember, we have to buy new) and more importantly, are there dealers here in the states? What would a ball park figure on this be in terms of a whole package -- lamphouse pedestal/film transport and modular head as opposed to say a Christie package with a Kinotone transport?  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-05-2007 07:59 AM                        Check out the Cinemeccanica long-play base, too. If they still make it, I'm sure that Jack Roe USA would be able to help you order one. Out of curiousity, why would you pick Christie over, say, Simplex? Don't you already have X-Ls in another theatre? If so, wouldn't it make sense to get more of the same unit so that you wouldn't need two spare-parts inventories? Also, what is the size of the room? I've seen some pretty small booths with two (or more) machines. See the pictures of the GCC Screening Room and Wellesley College Cinema.  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 06-05-2007 08:52 AM                     Ernemann also has a model E14 projector which has the automation functions built in the head. They are still in production and are part of Cine Project which is a large German Cinema Service Company. Big Sky / Xetron and others handle the product. I personally have one E15 system set up for 16/35mm + pedestal transport and a smaller E12 16/35mm unit which are used for rentals.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-05-2007 01:37 PM                     Has Ernemann yet to provide an exploded view of the projectors with part numbers? If not, I'd stay away from them. The FP25D from Kinoton is everything you saw in the Ernemann picture but with a better mechansim and superior film transport. Note too...Ernemann also comes from Europe so they too have a surcharge associated with them (dollar to Euro). Steve  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 06-05-2007 03:51 PM                     I'll put an M-80 in one of my machines and send you the photos of the explosion . Their drawings are pretty adequate  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-05-2007 10:03 PM                     What drawings? While we were servicing them...we never got anything relating to the gear train.  |  IP: Logged William Bunch Film Handler Posts: 87 From: Misawa, Japan Registered: Nov 2001 posted 06-08-2007 06:59 AM                        Frank, we have been using the Kinoton FP25E for about four years now and love it. It is very compact and very nearly maintenance free. Our booth is only eight feet deep and there is still plenty of room to walk behind the machine. We are a military base and our movies change daily and alternate so a platter system was out of the question for us. The 6,000m (3hr) reels do the job nicely. At any one time we can have nine features "reeled up" and ready to go. We do the build up and tear down on a separate make up table but the FP25E's spool tower can also be used for the same purpose in a pinch. Features can be rewound on the projector also. We were very lucky when we bought this one as the US Dollar was very favorable to the Euro at the time. Too bad that is different now as that is the only negative feature of this otherwise perfect package. The "D" model would be a little cheaper but since we are located at the very far end of the supply pipeline (northern Japan) we chose the electronic version. Other than routine cleaning of the fans and lamphouse this system has been almost maintenance free. Not so the Simplex XLs we had before. Although those XLs were still going strong after 50 some years. Last month Sony sent a team around to the military bases for a one night preview showing of Spiderman 3. They brought with then their engineers who had nothing but praise for how well the image looked on the screen. And as Brad has mentioned here before the basement Dolby reader has no trouble tracking digital in the low numbers. http://www.kinotonamerica.com/cinemaEquipment/fp25e.asp Good luck on your venture. [ 06-11-2007, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: William Bunch ]  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-11-2007 01:36 PM                        Thanks guys. This was all in the preminary stages and I was just trying to gather some opinions. I now have to wait till all the bureaucratic nonsense is danced before I know what they actually can spend in hard cash. Until then, it's a lot of speculation. But I will definately try to go with the Kinoton, probably FP60 and go cheaper around the rest of the system. This way I can have a superb mechanism even if I have to economize elsewhere -- like telling them to give up the video projector....hehe And Scott, the reason I was looking at Christie over Simplex was because I have worked with the new Simplex P35 and have had more small but annoying problems with it than one should have to put up with on a relatively new projector (only 5 - 6 years old). I never liked the feel of those machines as well. On the other hand, I am impressed with the Christie P35GPS -- everything on it feels solid. I really do like the idea of the integrated mechanism and soundhead. As for parts -- we don't keep a lot of parts; anything that is needed has to be bought on the spot.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-11-2007 01:54 PM                     quote: Frank Angel I have worked with the new Simplex P35 and have had more small but annoying problems with it than one should have to put up with on a relatively new projector (only 5 - 6 years old). I never liked the feel of those machines as well. On the other hand, I am impressed with the Christie P35GPS -- everything on it feels solid. I really do like the idea of the integrated mechanism and soundhead. Finally someone that is with me on Simplex reliability. Strong has done some good for the Simplex but they've done more bad things to it than I can list. You shouldn't have to Loc-Tite gate parts in place to have them stay together! I replaced two intermediate drive gears in the same complex today! I completely agree on the Christie and the P35GPS is getting even better with the addition of new round tooth timming belts and pulleys. There is also a molded composite curved runer available for it that is much lower friction and cheap to replace like Kinotons film path parts. Ultramittents rarely fail any more and I can't remember the last time I replaced one... its been at least several years. I have locations whose Ultramittents are 12+ years old and still run like new. This also says alot for the use of synthetic oil!!! Any competant dealer could easily mount a Christie P35GPS on top of the Ernemann or Kinoton Sidewinders for you. We have a number of the Ernemann setups that I service including one 16/35 at the Ogden Egyptian and Slumdance has I think a half dozen of them. They have given very little trouble overall but the soft edge on the aperature is a big down side. The nice part is that the gate bands come standard with velvet covering and they are fairly inexpensive to replace. The turrett is seemingly clunky but locks perfectly every time you close it. It slides forword to thread and theb locks back. It travels on a high quality linear ball bearing track. I also dislike the dead wheeling sprocket in the sound head just like in the old DeVry. Thats a very poor aspect of the Ernemann. So I like Steve's reccomendations for this BUT... Also consider the costs of large reels and appropriate film handling gear to go along with them. Todays large Goldberg reels are absolute crap compared to what they used to make and they will not stand behind their poorly made product! We have a local Drive In that uses large reels with Cinemacannicca towers and the new 36" Goldberg reels hubs are falling apart just after warranty on them runs out. The same Drive In has other Goldberg 36" reels that are 10 to 15 years old and still running just fine. If you go large reel then definately try to get the European wire reels when you order the equipment as they will hold up better. Mark  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-11-2007 02:12 PM                     The integrated mechanism/soundhead is mainly a european standard. Kinoton, Cinemeccanica, Prevost have been following this for years now and I find it to be the best thing. Christie has tried to penetrate the market by offering a lower price projector with almost the same features as the European ones. The downside to the european projectors is the unfavourable exchange rate of Euro Vs Dollar that is why Christie also sells great bunches in Europe. Demetris  |  IP: Logged

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