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Topic: Input needed about those Long Play Towers (Kintone)

Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 06-11-2007 04:02 PM

quote: Frank Angel
Thanks guys. This was all in the preminary stages and I was just trying to gather some opinions. I now have to wait till all the bureaucratic nonsense is danced before I know what they actually can spend in hard cash. Until then, it's a lot of speculation. But I will definately try to go with the Kinoton, probably FP60 and go cheaper around the rest of the system. This way I can have a superb mechanism even if I have to economize elsewhere -- like telling them to give up the video projector....hehe

I will try to keep this short so it is easy to read, Frank. [Wink]

Again: you buy cheap - you pay twice. That is a law of nature such as E=mc2.

Don't save money in the wrong place. Again, with the Kinoton lamphouse you get more and also more even light, typically even with one lamp size smaller than many other lamphouses. So you start saving from the moment you first switch on the lamphouse. The initial investment may be bigger, but in the long run, you will end up spending less money on parts and problems.

If cash is a problem, try to think of ways to raise some funds. Apparently, you already have an initial donation, maybe there is a way you can get more sponsoring to supplement that. It often helps if there is already a donation, potential donors like to think they contribute to something "big". I don't know what the standing of your theater is in the community, apparently it is some kind of "arthouse" theater which some people may see as worthy to support. There are also a ton of prominent film makers in and from NY, maybe you should write to some and ask them if they would like to support you in your continuing effort to uphold cinema as an art form. Or something like that.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-11-2007 06:59 PM

quote: Michael Schaffer
Again, with the Kinoton lamphouse you get more and also more even light, typically even with one lamp size smaller than many other lamphouses.

Not necessarily true. I;ve seen Christie lamps on DP-70's do better in the light department than a Kinoton lamp. The Egyptian Theater in Hollywood was a good example of Christie outdoing Kinoton. Also if one uses a lamphouse that is very efficient going to a smaller lamp than say a 2kw is foolish because the smaller lamps typically don't give the operating life of the 2kw lamp and the net cost is more per hour. Going from 3kw to 2kw makes much sense though if you can get away with that... rarely though.

Mark

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 06-11-2007 11:16 PM

Not rarely. 3k lamps are very common, and many of these installations could easily run 2k in a Kinoton lamphouse. Which many auditoriums with comparable scree sizes did with very good results in the theaters I worked for in Germany.

I have seen the Christie lamphouses in the Egyptian theater, too, and that amazed me. Due to the much shallower reflector and shorter lamphouse, these lamphouses simply don't have as much light output, and they have other issues as well, including hotspotting and heat issues, so I was fairly surprised to see that and hear the story. But I only saw it "after", not "before". I wonder what the problem was there before, incorrect installation and alignment? I don't know. But I was really surprised to see that since I have seen many screens of that size (both 35mm and 70mm) which were easily lit with a Kinoton lamphouse, and with better and more even light, too. Even the old Royal-Palast in Berlin which allegedly had the biggest curved screen in Europe (102') still worked pretty well with the same projector and a Kinoton lamphouse. The Egyptian has pretty dark corners and not really very even light. But, like I said, I didn't see the "before", so I don't know what the problem was there. Certainly nothing that was improved by replacing the lamphouse with the Christie one.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-12-2007 06:20 AM

Christie lamphouses/consoles have notably higher heat output than even Strong and significantly higher heat output than Kinoton. Light uniformity is certainly significantly better on Kinoton's lamphouses than ANY metal reflector based lamphouse I've seen. I can say with relative certainty, I could match up a Kinoton lamphouse to a Christie (or a Strong) and achieve more light, more even light and less heat than a Christie. Several times I've matched a Christie to a Strong and the Strong has more light (Super 80/Ultra 80/Highlight (15" reflector) than the Christie (SLC40). Christie definately has more blue light which may give the illusion of more light but to the light meter...it is not the case and in terms of flesh tones...Christie ruins them. But sense most home TV monitors are set to 6500K or even 9000K most people have a poor reference as to what is correct to how the film was actually color balanced.

The SLC (SLH) optics are definately Christie's best...notabl better than the older K and H series reflectors. It is one reason Christie's Phoenix kit does wonders for CH consoles...you get the SLC light path.

I don't agree with Mark at all on not always going for the smaller lamp....the less heat you put on the film the better it will peform...not only with respect to fade but with respect to image resolution since it will swell less, heat the lenses less you will actually resolve more of the image. Since we typically get 5000 hours on the 1.6K lamps they are not thought of as real service issue...note too...not only do they cost less, they are consumming less power which also goes to the savings. I tend to be more of the run the next higher lamp in the lower portion of its range than the smaller lamp in the top portion of its range, theory group though.

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Robert Minichino
Master Film Handler

Posts: 350
From: Haskell, NJ, USA
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 06-12-2007 08:14 AM

quote: Steve Guttag
But sense most home TV monitors are set to 6500K or even 9000K most people have a poor reference as to what is correct to how the film was actually color balanced.

A white point of 6500K (or more precisely illuminant D65) is correct for TV, and telecine and TV production is done with this in mind. 9000K is obviously way off and should make people look blue, but then some sets have noticeable red push in the color decoder to attempt to compensate for that [Frown]

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Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 06-12-2007 09:29 AM

Color temp tv verses film brings up an interesting observation.

With NTSC D65 was choosen for an even balance of primaries Red/Green/Blue yielding pure white.

Film is D55 which should look slightly redder then d65 but it looks bluer or higher then D65. Why is that?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-12-2007 10:35 AM

Well you can go on and on with this issue. In fact you can replace the Kinoton reflector with the one from Roberts Film Service and have double or more than what the Kinoton is capable of doing. We have a couple of sites that have done exactly that. Don't forget that Christie also has a glass reflector available....

Steve,

The reason American Cinemateque took the Kinotons out at the Eqyptian and installed the Christies was exactly because of heat related issues. There were heat related focus problems there when running 70mm prints. Switching over to the Christies gave very noticably less heat related focus issues than did the Kinotons. If you want more exact info on the how's and why's of the problems the Kinotons were causing you will need to ask Paul Rayton about it. That pair of Kinoton lamps is now at their locaton #2 in Santa Monica runnign on a smaller screen with smaller lamops in them.

Mark

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Demetris Thoupis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1240
From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-12-2007 11:13 AM

After checking all Christie houses in Cyprus I am positive that Kinoton lamphouses beat the heck out of Christie. I have seen same size houses with 4K on Christie projectors and they are nothing like the 3K we've installed in a theater in 2001. Even the 2.5K lamphouse gave better light than the Christie one. As far as heat problems, they run very cool and we never had any complaints nor from the manager nor from the projectionist.
Demetris

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 06-12-2007 04:28 PM

I did talk to Paul about that when I first visited the Egyptian, but that was almost 4 years or so ago, I totally forgot what he said. I am getting old... Could be though that he also spoke of heat and focus problems. But that's not a general problem with these lamphouses at all. What the actual problem was I don't know since I didn't see the "before", but this seems like a classic case of "throwing the child out with the bathwater", someone maybe didn't know how to set up and troubleshoot these properly and that's why they decided to throw them out and replace them with (to them) more familiar, but inferior equipment. That sometimes happens!

I remember seeing an installation in which all the optical failsafes on the FP50D had been bypassed and another brand of optical failsafe installed. I asked the installer why?, and he told me that "the failsafes don't work - they triggered and stopped the machine all the time". I asked him if he was aware that there is a little trimpot right there on the failsafe, under a small plastic ring, with which the sensitivity of the failsafe could be adjusted. But no, he wasn't. So he decided to bypass them and install all these other failsafes when he could just have pulled the plastic ring off, adjusted the sensitivity, pushed the plastic ring back on. Takes about 20 seconds for each.
Oops...

I looked at the Robert Film Services website (Mark - in case you wonder how I found it without a link, I googled it) but didn't find any information about that reflector except some flashy animations and the general info that Technalight is really awesome. I would like to know more about it, although I am very sceptical about dramatic claims like "twice the light output!" (especially when they come from Mark [Big Grin]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-12-2007 05:02 PM

To be honest with you Michael the US Distributer of Kinoton did the original installation of the lamphouses at the Egyptian. If they couldn't do the install and end up with the machines properly focusing then who could? One would tend to think they would know their gear VERY well.

We used a Roberts Film Service reflector in a brand new Kinoton Lamphouse at BYU on the Eastman 25. In before and after tests done at Full Aperature Systems in Chicago (the guys from BYU were also present when this was done)the Kinoton mirror was good but did not perform anywhere near as good as the Roberts FS mirror did. At the actual install at BYU I had the USL light meter and did a reading of 27fl +/- 2 fl withnthe 2kw lamp running at 70 amps, this was on a matte surface!

Next time you jet into Chicago I suggest you look up a chap by the name of James Bond at Full Aperature Systems so you too can see a before and after demo. James has more experience with Kinoton Lamphouses and various manufacturers mirrors including Roberts than anyone else here on this forum, and that experience be on all formats from 8/70 down to 16mm.

You can also come by Salt Lake City and visit the Redwood Drive In where there are 6 Roberts converted Christie lamphouses that were running 4kw, now running short gap and ROberts mirrors. Since the conversion they have picture quality as good as many indoor theaters. They did not chenge out any lenses there.

While you are here I'll take you out on a desert tour and into some of the old mines so you can get some Gold of your own.

I'm not saying thet Kinoton Lamphouses are not worth their price... but there are still other very viable and better reflector options and Kinoton does indeed sell the lamphouses without the mirrors if you ask. You can also take an old lamphouse that you paid $100.00 for and install these reflectors and still end up with it performing better than a very expensive Kinoton. Remember from a couple of years ago that I two was skeptical about the Roberts thing. I however tend to believe what James tells me because of his sucess on the dozens of high profile installs that he has done with them over the last few years.

quote: Steve Guttag
Christie lamphouses/consoles have notably higher heat output than even Strong and significantly higher heat output than Kinoton.

quote: Steve Guttag
Christie definately has more blue light

Steve says they have higher heat output but then he says they are more in the blue spectrum. The blue spectrum is actually the cooler spectrum of light... what gives Steve... this seems somewhat contradictory.... Perhaps the Christie really is more efficient at collecting light and they are controling heat going forword via the mirror coating. Makes good sense! Its color temp is more than likely not much worse than a Strong Ultra 80 with an added high end sharp cut off heat filter shuch as that made by Ultraflat. In theory if you are getting rid of the heat you are also getting rid of some of the visible spectrum as well.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-12-2007 11:59 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Steve says they have higher heat output but then he says they are more in the blue spectrum. The blue spectrum is actually the cooler spectrum of light... what gives Steve... this seems somewhat contradictory....

Sorry Mark...thems the facts...the light is visibly and measurably bluer...typically 6500+ and most definately HOTTER. A Christie lamphouse will emboss B&W film much faster than a Strong or Kinoton putting out more light on the screen.

I'll take the Kinoton vs Christie challenge any day...I'll get more light/less heat on the Kinoton every time...I have no idea what went wrong at the Egyptian but something definately went wrong....having run 70mm in IMAX theatres using the DP70 w/Kinoton Universal 2-7K lamphouse running 7KW running both 35 and 70mm.

Having not really worked with the RFS reflector I can't comment on it. It may very well be better than Kinoton's Balzer reflector...Kinoton doesn't HAVE to be better...I just call it like I see it. I've put in a fair number of rather high-end systems myself and continue to do so.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-13-2007 07:34 AM

Steve,

I agree the Christie is bluer than the others, there's no debate on that from me. Excepting critical applications it really doesn't matter much. The thing that contradicts itself is that blue light by nature is cooler. There may still by UV or infrared being reflected forword and we wouldn't see that nor normally be able to measure it. However that can be taken care of by a sharp cutoff heat filter. I believe this is what was done at the Egyptian to end up with less resultant heat on the film than the Kinoton's were giving out.

Indeed if the Distributer of Kinoton Products can't make it work??????? Generally those guys do pretty good work but perhaps you could teach them a thing or two. I suspect that the solution was as simple as simple as including the correct heat filter? Not necessarily the one thats in stock on the parts shelf.

quote: Michael Schaffer
Again: you buy cheap - you pay twice. That is a law of nature such as E=mc2.

Michael,
This theory does not hold true for the RFS reflector conversion. Take any used $100.00 lamphouse and add his 2500.00 optical bench and end up with even more light and spend about half or less than half of the cost of the Kinoton.

Mark

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