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Topic: Oil and Oiling?

David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 01-06-2008 08:47 PM

I was channel-hopping and Shop NBC or whatever it's called was pushing Mitsubishi rear-projection DLP TVs. They had like a 73" model for about $2600 or something like that, I forget. Anyway they showed a picture of a Christie DLP D-Cinema projector and claimed the Mitsubishi DLP "Is the same thing!!!!".

So clearly prices on D-Cinema equipment have fallen dramatically. [Big Grin]

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 01-06-2008 10:20 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Out here you're lucky to get who you can...You could offer to pay 15 or more bucks an hour and they're still goin to get paid way way more at Haliburton or by some other gas exploration firm.

Yes, and I'll bet housing and other cost of living expenses are proportionately higher, too. [Razz]

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Steve Beverly
Film Handler

Posts: 83
From: El Paso, Tx.,
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 01-06-2008 10:37 PM

[QUOTE]
I was channel-hopping and Shop NBC or whatever it's called was pushing Mitsubishi rear-projection DLP TVs. They had like a 73" model for about $2600 or something like that, I forget. Anyway they showed a picture of a Christie DLP D-Cinema projector and claimed the Mitsubishi DLP "Is the same thing!!!!".

So clearly prices on D-Cinema equipment have fallen dramatically. [Big Grin]"

[QUOTE]

Or they were just lying....Not that THAT ever happens on a shopping channel. [Roll Eyes]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-07-2008 07:37 AM

quote: Steve Beverly was the last to post
So clearly prices on D-Cinema equipment have fallen dramatically.

They have at least on Christie projectors... again they're selling more projectors per month than the other companys are selling during a quarter. About a year ago that CP-2000 cost you 85K with the lenses the ZX costs you about 54 to 56K depending on how you want to do scope and its able to cover 89% of the screens out there. The servers are extra of course.

quote: Tim Reed
Yes, and I'll bet housing and other cost of living expenses are proportionately higher, too.

Not in Utah where the housing market is fairly reasonable... Utah also was not hit with all the high number of forclosures that many states were hit with. In Wyoming its all together a different story though... even in a dump of a town like Rawlins that 70,000 dollar house 5 yers ago is now 200,000+. Apartments are also scarce as hens teeth and new homes are being built slowly... just a few apartments here and there going up. In a number of areas they have what are called "Man Camps"... large areas with row after row of 5th wheel trailers parked for living quarters... resembles a truck stop Tim! Wyoming suffered from the oil shale dilemma (bust) back in the 80's... folks there are much more careful about the oil/gas boom this time around.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-07-2008 09:37 AM

To clarify some inaccuracies that Mark is putting out there...while there are deals done for some exhibitors based on volume. A Christie CP2000ZX without a lamp or lens lists $68K...yes that is list but the dealer discounts are nowhere near what they are on film equipment. Add to that your lens starting at $8K list for the "cheapest" ones, the DCinema version of the xenon lamps ($1.3 - $2K) and things add up pretty fast. For an anamorphic add another $16K-$17K depending on motorizing. The prices Mark is posting is BELOW dealer cost for a working system.

For a working CP2000 system with a 4K lamp lists for close to $109K...again, street prices will vary. At least Mark didn't give a price below dealer on this one though one isn't going to live well on that.

Mark, I'm asking you to stop putting out "street prices" on equipment...as a dealer or one that works for a dealer, such pricing should be kept confidential...just like it says on the price lists. Let the end users discuss street prices. What is worse is that you always seem to err in a manner that moves your apparent agenda.

And even my right-priced Kinoton E projectors are a bargain compared to your soon-to-be-obsolete digital stuff.

Steve

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 01-07-2008 10:08 AM

Is there a P.M. schedule to oil the blowers in the Christie digital projectors which I saw in one location running 24 hours a day. [Smile]

Dealer pricing on Digital is very, very slim compared to traditional film.....but sales of traditional film equipment is almost a non-issue.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-07-2008 01:20 PM

Well, I guess your overhead is alot higher out east Steve! Thats to be expected I guess. I don't know a dealer that sells or even discusses list pricing! I prefer to discuss things right at what we'd sell it for and will continue to do so. Its fair and honest!! Keep in mind that our pricing is not the lowest either... it is fair pricing though which is to some extent governed by our lower overead. To be fair why don't you also cry in this thread about the even lower printed pricing from that Miami Equipment Dealer... So what if we started selling on E-Bay Steve... would you also cry at the pricing there? That is hardly unfair... it may be competitive though... sorry [Roll Eyes]

. Also tell me, do you cry when Strong sells direct? Are they being competitive? Definately not... they are sticking their dealers in the ass at the same time when they do that. I think your arrogance speaks for itself.

Gee Steve... Your statement on obsolescence are nothing but hearsay... You have no idea nor does anyone else here know when this gear will approach obsolescence... actually talking about obsolescence... film certainly is, just ask Kodak, they make the stuff. THEY WILL tell you that it is. You accuse me of selling stuff thats going obsolete but didn't all your CP-200's just get put on the obsolescence list at Dolby?

E-Machine's are more likely to see a servo drive motor go obsolete than any other single part... thank China! Motor companies are dropping like flies because of China or having their stuff produced there and alot of it is very marginal in quality. This obsolescence ting appened to both Westrex and RCA... and thats a fact not hearsay. I wonder how long it'll be before Kinoton's is. BTW.... Don't I remember Larry Shaw saying they cost 35K to replace.... [Big Grin]

At least while they make em I guess [Big Grin]

quote: Richard Fowler
Is there a P.M. schedule to oil the blowers in the Christie digital projectors which I saw in one location running 24 hours a day.

Definately not in either the CP-2000S or te ZX! All motors are ball bearing... most of the fans are muffin fans... in fact the ZX uses a rather high end Pabst blower assembly. For the last several years even the console blowers have been all ball bearing.

Mark

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Mike Perju
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-07-2008 02:58 PM

Mark, the CP-200 enjoyed 25+ years of excellent reputation. I'm not sure if Dolby's CP-650 or any other video projector would last even half that long.

All I'm saying is that enjoy my toys that I grow old with. I love my Hasselblad CM body, 24 years old now, with another 24 years to go. Film is not obsolete, because there is nothing that comes close in digital imaging (yet). Leaf's new back for 2 1/4 cameras is still not a full 2 1/4 x 2 1/4 and has several major shortfalls at $20k a pop.

If people were willing to train their booth operators, film mated with digital sound would provide the best presentation for most of my forseeable lifetime. By switching to digital, we are going to sink below the quality marins of the new still digital imaging market. All it will do is potetially save rich people (the Studios) money, make other people money (George Lucas), while providing the oblivious public an inferior looking experience. Oh and yes, only trained professionals will service this ever renewed equipmnet, which is truly a good thing.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-07-2008 04:52 PM

quote:
If people were willing to train their booth operators,

You're more than welcome to come down and train them but you'll be training new kids every two weeks.

Kodak as stated that it does indeed consider film obsolete....They are scuryingalong with oters to develop new digital tecnologies so they can survive. Don't forget that film didn't look so good in it's infancy... With the exception of a handful of screens digital "looks" far superior to film and the light from a digital projector has no equal, it is tops in all aspects.

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Mike Perju
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 01-07-2008 06:10 PM

Mark, digital may have smoother transitions between trailers, and no lab splices, but color wise (never mind compression artifacting) it looks no better than those disgusting jpeg digital picture frames that Walmart sells.

I admit however I have only seen the Cristie and the Barco at work, so other machines may be better. I may also be pickier than some... after all most people can't tell the difference between traditional and the Frontier minilab still prints.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-07-2008 06:17 PM

quote: Tim Reed
Yes, and I'll bet housing and other cost of living expenses are proportionately higher, too.

Yep, from West "Jellystone", to down south to Jackson Hole, WYO and surrounding areas is one on the most massive tourist traps and havens for the rich and famous..almost like SunValley, Idaho

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-07-2008 07:58 PM

Monte... Sun Valley is a dot of activity compared to whats been going on in Eastern Idaho, Jackson Hole, and Starr Valley. One thing hilarious about Sun Valley is that it's become so expensive that even the Millionaires are leaving there and building down in Hailey or further south.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-07-2008 09:04 PM

I'm not crying Mark...you just seem to like to spout BS nowadays...possibly just to get a rise out of people. Your discussion of street pricing is very disreputable as a dealer; you should be ashamed but I'm sure you are not. To make matters worse, you clearly are not looking at the prices when you spout your BS...I was, in my response.

As to the CP200...there is very little about it that is obsolete as it was built on mostly stale and multi-sourced technology...something your DCinema machines can not make the same claim. Of all of the used CP200's I've installed...its age, support and such have been made VERY clear to their owners and amble spares (including an entire spare CP200, in one facility) to stave off any truely "no longer available" items. If a suitable non-discontinued alternative was available, it would have been used. Any time one of types of facilities I tend to install purchases equipment, "used" is not generally allowed. But gee you mean you are going to choose a processor that has been out of production by 14-15 years as one that a manufacturer has discontinued support? In fact, it depends on the module. Even their brand new DMA8 Plus has support for the CP200. Bad choice to pick on. How long after the CP2000 goes out of production will Christie stop supporting it? Care to predict? Do you think it will make it 14-years? There are more CP2000s than CP200s.

As to soon-to-be-obsoleted technology...I guess you stick your head in the sand and not see how fast the technology comes and goes in Video. For all your past experience in semiconductors and equipment repair, you should know about the downside to single-source parts...they disappear fast. Only a moron wouldn't realize that 2K DCinema is DCinema in its infancy...it is a mere 1/2 the resolution of the worst common 35mm format (1.85). One would hope that an emerging technology would continue to improve upon itself to the point it is indeed notably superior to home technology. It clearly isn't there yet. So the fine folks buying it today are buying "Beta 2" equipment with 1.3K being Beta 1. Those machines gave a whopping 4-years of life and the movie industry won't even supply them with content...it isn't like they got worse than when they were "just about as good as film". It is a bad trend. I will give TI some credit here...they have seemingly supported the older units. So go ahead, put in your 1/2 as good a resolution with your inferior contrast and lacking color...knock yourself out. It is a whole lot better than when it started and it does look real good (at a distance) but it hopefully will get at least twice as good as it is now.

As for film being obsolete...it is THE storage medium for born-digital movies...it is the only medium that anyone in the archiving business feels will have the lasting power at this time. That is well documented. Film remains a cheaper presentation medium to digital...no matter how you want to dance and mislead on the numbers.

Speaking of misleading/misquoting...$35K for an intermittent? Sorry pal...a whole machine is somewhat less than that...even with a 47% price change due to the crappy $$$. They are more than a geneva movement but not astronomically more. So far, I haven't had one fail yet...I guess they aren't using your Chinese motors. In any event...China does not mean bad...China means you need to specify the grade of the part you want...they have from cheap to great. In fact, Kinoton has just upped the quality of the machine with their new "Premier" version of the intermittent which is yet more precise and the price of the machine didn't go up...hmmm much better value for the money...a 4-5 times improvement in steadiness that was already many time better than mechanical counterparts. Resolution is also increased due to steadiness (35-PA is going to need new resolution targets to measure this one).

So how much is that imager in your DCinema machines? Parts costs are, across the board, more expensive for DCinema...and I'm comparing this to top-of-the-line machines...compared to good mechanical machines...the spread gets even greater.

Light uniformity? Just how bad do you set up your film systems? Even the DCinema specs are not much, if any different than for Film. There should be VERY little difference between film and DCinema...I seem to get uniform results on both film and DCinema. Where DCinema is a clear winner though is color temperature. Not because it is inherently better but because one can effectively "EQ" the light to provide a very predictable and constant result. One could filter the film system too (Schneider even makes a kit to do this). But yes...with DCinema...use your meter to read the native light...key in the readings and Wham...you are at D65. DCinema definitely DOES have its merits and I look forward to when it is truly superior. But something must be flawed with it when you need to exaggerate the truth about it.

Mark, I don't care that you are in love with DCinema (or anyone else)...that isn't the point...but mislead, exaggerate the truth to the point that things are more fiction than true should be beneath you.

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Steve Beverly
Film Handler

Posts: 83
From: El Paso, Tx.,
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 01-07-2008 09:59 PM

Just a side note, I was born in Rock Springs, Wyoming and lived there until I was 11 or 12 so when Mark mentioned Rawlins I flashed back. Strange, strange place. [eyes]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-07-2008 10:57 PM

I service the 10 screen there twice a year!! The theaters downtown are closed... one is a church now. The FF Restaurants in Rock Springs are so short of help that only the drive thru's are open. Homes... well... out of sight...

Mark

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