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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Are we the last of a dying breed? (Page 4)

 
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Author Topic: Are we the last of a dying breed?
Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted 01-13-2008 05:08 PM      Profile for Cameron Glendinning   Email Cameron Glendinning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ofcourse we are the last of a dying breed, I've been told that for over 20 years! It comes as no surprise to me.


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-13-2008 10:06 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On another note Louis said... "You cannot be pro-70mm and pro digital at the same time."

I say why not... both are excellent formats... I just don't discuss the dead format very much... doesn't mean that I don't fantasize that it might return some day....

Mark

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-14-2008 06:22 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Ron Funderburg
To answer the question of the thread the old fashioned film handler is a dying breed or more likely a changing breed. Platers were suppose to end the need for real projectionist but it didn't and this will be same the job will change not disappear.
Actually, it did, at least in numbers. Where it took 15 well-trained projectionists to run fifteen screens, platters and automation eliminated 14 of them. And even enticed the exhibitor to replace that trained one with one who would not need quite as much training and who was not in it as a career, thus allowing Mr. Exhibitor to hire him/her at a lower, some might even say, non-living wage salary. THAT is what gave exhibition an erection when patters and automation came on the scene, not that new system would give better image quality or improve presentation -- that was the LAST thing on their minds.

And that is how all the poor presentation quality that we have documented here in lenghty threads has come to pass. It's not that film can't be look and sound spectacular, it is just that all the other factors have conspired to prevented it from acheiving anywhere near its potential in most of your average assembly-line multiplexes.

Modern distribution patterns also contribute to this decline given the number of prints that have to be made in very short time frames. This is where have gotten today. That is why many, like Mark, hold that digital offers the ability to provide consistant quality at a higher level, NOT of what film is CAPABLE of, but better than what actually is presented on the majority of screens throughout the country. Film offers the theoretical possibility of superb image quality....digital offers actual, consistant results which are better than most film presentations in the average multiplex -- at least while everything is brand new.

The issue of course is, that's the way it is today, with all the digital projectors spanking new out of the box. Problem is, they are being put into the same booths where exhibitors weren't concerned enough about hiring well-trained projectionists/technicians, albeit at higher salaries. They are being put into booths were bulbs are being run long past their rated hours, and in booths where managers want to show a better bottom line by refusing to keep a supply of lens cleaner or where there is only a supply of the cheapest masking tape. What makes anyone think that ten years into the digital scenario that the same concern ONLY for the bottom line won't have the same detrimental impact on digital equipment and presentation quality as it had when the projector in the booth was film-based?

I don't know the answer because that remains to be seen, but given the past history of how exhibition approaches maintenance and concern for booth equipment, I am not convinced at all that history won't repeat itself and we will find the same kind of neglect and unconcern about the equipment and presentation that these very same people had for film won't be visited on digital. Putting in different equipment isn't going to change that mindset.

In fact, digital may make it worse, because Mr. Exhibitor is going into the digital era thinking this equipment will run itself FOREVER without so much as a thought to what's going on in the booth....you KNOW they are salivating because they think that all they will need to run 15 , 20, 45 screens is grunt of an assistant manager to push icons on a touch screen and that's the extent of it. This is their wet-dream come true....they finally have their "people-less" booth.

In that environment, a digital projector will be just prone to neglect as was the film projector that it replaced. Only difference is, now the exhibitor won't have to buy ANY masking tape.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-14-2008 07:28 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Angel
Where it took 15 well-trained projectionists to run fifteen screens, platters and automation eliminated 14 of them.
Yes, those 15 projectionist are now operating well oiver 150 screens!

quote: Frank Angel
In fact, digital may make it worse, because Mr. Exhibitor is going into the digital era thinking this equipment will run itself FOREVER without so much as a thought to what's going on in the booth....
Actually the screwdriver happy booth mongerswill depart... this equipment does not need a tinkerer around.

quote: Frank Angel
In that environment, a digital projector will be just prone to neglect as was the film projector that it replaced. Only difference is, now the exhibitor won't have to buy ANY masking tape.

Actually he will be doing so at the possibility of a very expensive mirror replacement so I disagree. A BARCO DP-100 lamp module is about 9 grand to replace...the entire module is actually cheaper than replacing the mirror and associated pieces.... Christie is more reasonable but still over a couple grand. Once the lamp expoleds onthese neglectful owners they'll be changing their tune. Also Digital projectors that a re equiped with light loc are able to maintain proper light levels throughout their normal lamplife... so being left unattended is completely feesable. Dealers will certainly see more service contracts happen.

Mark

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Brian Guckian
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 594
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: Apr 2003


 - posted 01-14-2008 12:22 PM      Profile for Brian Guckian   Email Brian Guckian   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
On another note Louis said... "You cannot be pro-70mm and pro digital at the same time."

I say why not... both are excellent formats... I just don't discuss the dead format very much... doesn't mean that I don't fantasize that it might return some day....

Good to hear, Mark! [thumbsup]

I agree with what Frank says in that essentially, where there are bad attitudes in film presentation today, these will be continued into the digital domain [Frown]

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 01-14-2008 04:52 PM      Profile for Ron Funderburg   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Funderburg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A long, long time ago in my life far far away I would hope and pray that all films would filmed in Ultra Panavision and shown only on Cinerama screens with 6 track (or even 7 track) magnetic sound! It was a hope, a desire, a dream of mine from the late 60 (even when I wasn't an adult or in the business) up to the late 80s when it became obvious that it would never happen.

Oh well maybe Digital will be able to be shown in giant screens and hold quality! But for goodness sakes lets not have theaters with 10 foot screens anywhere anymore it is an embarrassment for that to happen!

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Andres Briano
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 162
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Registered: Jan 2008


 - posted 02-16-2008 11:17 AM      Profile for Andres Briano   Author's Homepage   Email Andres Briano   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I remember as far back as 1996 announcements claiming film was dead and digital would be everywhere by the turn of the century. What happened ? Too many tech problems and ongoing concerns about piracy.
THATīS IT! Those of us who love film and donīt care about digital, should study to become excellent Hackers so that we can help piracy make digital crash and burn! [Big Grin]

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 02-16-2008 12:48 PM      Profile for Ron Funderburg   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Funderburg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andres the movies often hit the net before they hit the theater so no hacking is necessary at this point. Film is easy to copy while it runs. No hacking is necessary for the film to be copied and distributed they are hoping digital is less easy. Beats me if you can copy it with a camcorder. What about it guys can you copy a digital picture with a camcorder? Who knows the answer to that?

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-16-2008 03:37 PM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, yes, very much so. Camcorder copies look even better now because there's no shutter in the projector.

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Thomas Pitt
Master Film Handler

Posts: 266
From: Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: May 2007


 - posted 02-16-2008 04:16 PM      Profile for Thomas Pitt   Email Thomas Pitt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hear there's a new system to stop camcorder copies with digital projectors. It involves projecting an interference pattern in addition to the picture - the pattern is invisible to the naked eye, but wreaks havoc with the camcorder CCD.
There's also the method of putting IR lamps behind the screen and flashing them at random - again the naked eye can't see them, but they'll cause the camcorder picture to be blotchy and washed out. This works with film as well as digital [Wink]

Have you ever heard of a 'rogue' projectionist sneaking in a mini-telecine and copying the film that way, during a normal showing? I've never seen it happen, but I have heard rumors.

With digital projection, after the initial set up of the projector you can lock the booth door and not have anyone going in and out (except when the bulb needs changing). Everything can be done from a master console and server, in a back room off the lobby.
I reckon that before long, when everything is 100% digital, projectionists will no longer be 'film handlers' and will be trained completely differently. Nobody will need to build up prints and thread up projectors any more; instead people will be trained how to ingest digital prints onto a server, and set up start timers. Perhaps the wage will go down as you won't have as much to do!

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 02-16-2008 06:32 PM      Profile for Ron Funderburg   Author's Homepage   Email Ron Funderburg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thomas wrote
quote: Thomas Pitt
Have you ever heard of a 'rogue' projectionist sneaking in a mini-telecine and copying the film that way, during a normal showing? I've never seen it happen, but I have heard rumors.
I have heard of it but not seen it. I heard in the old days (pre-camcorder) of delivery people dropping prints off at labs and film copies made. I mean the pirate thing isn't a new deal it is just way more common now.

Tim what a pity so cracking codes is not that big a deal! I guess we can put in the kind of measures that Thomas documented. The biggest savings for the film company is that people to pay to see the product and it sounds like copying will be made easier not harder so maybe Digital isn't as close as it would appear. If 70MM could make a comeback I would vote everything go 70MM

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 02-17-2008 12:24 AM      Profile for Tim Reed   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Ron Funderburg
Digital isn't as close as it would appear.
Ron, it's already here, my friend. It's here. [Smile] We've been installing them like crazy with no end in sight.

As the title of this thread portends, it's over with.

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Peter David Bruce
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 187
From: East Anglia -England
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted 02-17-2008 02:08 AM      Profile for Peter David Bruce     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
looks like our cinema is to go totally digital sometime over the next year.
i will sorely miss 35mm.

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Ben Wales
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 602
From: Southampton. England
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 02-17-2008 05:26 AM      Profile for Ben Wales   Email Ben Wales   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Thomas Pitt
With digital projection, after the initial set up of the projector you can lock the booth door and not have anyone going in and out (except when the bulb needs changing). Everything can be done from a master console and server, in a back room off the lobby
It could also be controled remotely, so the Cinema of the future will operated on a Operational by a control center (Film Studios/Cinema HO?) and at the sites will just see a Technical A/V Manager running/basic Maintance the system and the future for the 35mm Projectionist is bleak and one Cinema operator here in the UK is starting this process with just one Technical staff with D-Cinema (Digital Video) builds .

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Peter David Bruce
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 187
From: East Anglia -England
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted 02-17-2008 05:33 AM      Profile for Peter David Bruce     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thats terrible. Ive spent all my life waiting for a job like this. I cant have it taken away from me. I WILL NOT go out without a fight.

my rule; computers are only as good as the people that control them. Even these digital setups need experienced, qualified people to run and maintain them. We shall all have to adapt.

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