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Author Topic: 'Cloverfield' may have killed the subwoofer Mike Olpin Chop Chop! Posts: 1852 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Jan 2002 posted 01-19-2008 06:20 PM                     WARNING Jargon ahead: A speaker blown out in the traditional sense is usually damaged from within. The voice coil near the magnet at the rear of the cone melts and no longer sustains accurate excursions. BASICALLY: Sounds like someone kicked it out. If you blew it by sending to much signal to it, it would not create the large holes in the cone you described.  |  IP: Logged Adam Martin I'm not even gonna point out the irony. Posts: 3686 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-19-2008 06:22 PM                     quote: Brad Miller I also see those small auditoriums tend to get rushed with a "good enough" attitude during the installation and calibration. I can't count the number of theater openings I've witnessed where the building was open for weeks before the auditoriums could even be chained or EQed. Set Dolby tone and go. I guess the simple fact that the place even opened is "Good Enough". This, of course, means that when the tech does finally get around to half-ass EQing the system, the entire A-chain has been forgotten. This is why 90% of auditoriums out there run at 4.5 on the fader and sound like grandma's hearing aid. Can you tell that this subject really pisses me off?  |  IP: Logged Adam Martin I'm not even gonna point out the irony. Posts: 3686 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-19-2008 06:36 PM                     A blown HF speaker will frequently have physical damage to the diaphragm. A [sub]woofer, as Mike suggested, is more likely to have suffered driver damage (over-driving) where the internal parts of the driver have been forced beyond the mechanical limits. If the internal components have locked up, then [gently] pushing the cone will result in resistance rather than the normal "give". Some common causes of driver damage would include an amp that is overpowering the woofer or an amp that is clipping. Damage to the cone is more likely to occur from some physical or environmental cause, such as the janitors blowing trash around, someone poking/sticking/kicking it, or rotting away from operating in a poor environment for a long time.  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-19-2008 06:44 PM                        Okay I have become a aware that I made a few mistypes in my one post. The sound should be the same (though smaller theaters seem louder and yes often due to cheaper equipment). Poor technicians should be strung up by their thumbs and whipped with wet noodles until they promise not be so bad anymore! I was trying to say that EQing is for individual speakers and not sure if I made that clear. Yes the standard is 85DB not 84 sorry! If all speakers are set to 85DB (wait surrounds are set just a wee lower and subs are 90DB on DTS systems don't remember on Dolby) then no matter where you sit the sound should be the same; however, any near empty theater will sound louder than any near full theater. We turn our systems up to 7.0 if are 3/4 full or fuller! We run at 6.0 below and turn down on smaller crowds if we get a complaint it is to loud. I ignore you people wanting it louder unless it is only young folk in the theater and I never run above 7.5! My most common complaint from folk my age is that is just to darn loud! Well unless like me they are old rocker's and then it just isn't loud enough darn it! Never EQ or set levels with a person in the theater or theater door open as it affects the levels of the pink nose you are reading! Okay now I hope there are no errors in this one but I probable made a few! Oh did say that bad tech's should be held under water until they promise to learn their jobs?  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 01-19-2008 06:51 PM                     Sad thing about some techs is that they only do what you only needed done real quick, or sell you what they want you to have, then take the money - to get out of "Dodge City" as fast as they can. quote: My most common complaint from folk my age is that is just to darn loud! ..thus, turn it down so they'll come back for more entertainment instead of them seeking other venues that WILL turn it down. Granted, the 7.0 default setting on the 'pots' is what the studios record the tracks at and expect the houses to reproduce at that same level. BUT, there are people out there who don't want it loud, but just confortable to listen to what the actors are saying and not worrying on how loud the 'eye candy' sound effects interfering with the dialog are.  |  IP: Logged Adam Martin I'm not even gonna point out the irony. Posts: 3686 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Nov 2000 posted 01-19-2008 06:54 PM                     quote: Ron Funderburg any near empty theater will sound louder than any near full theater Well, that depends. A number of factors will affect the apparent loudness of the audio, including (but not limited to) the acoustic design of the room and how much noise the crowd is making itself.  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-19-2008 07:02 PM                        Adam, yes but the human body absorbs sound! I personally like full houses much more better than empty houses. And yes loud crowds make the perceived sound softer! SHHH! We set it at 6.0 and if there are only old folks in the theater I will cater to them just as if there are only young folks! The problem is when you have the young and the old in the same joint seeing the same movie you can't please both so better to just leave it alone and tell them both you tried to make an adjustment how was it!  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-19-2008 07:52 PM                     If you walk into an auditorium and listen to a movie with two people talking in a 10x10 foot room, it should be at a comfortable volume level as if there were two people talking in the same 10x10 foot room that you are standing there listening to them in. (Not sure how to word that, I don't want some dip coming back at me saying "but a movie theater isn't 10x10"). Likewise, if someone fires a gun, it SHOULD be loud because let's face it, guns are loud. If someone whispers, it should sound like whispering and if someone is yelling then that should be reproduced as if someone was yelling. I can't count the number of times I have been in random theaters where whispering was at a volume level of talking and god forbid someone fires a gun in the movie or a bomb goes off. In return, I have been to many theaters where when an actor whispered it was inaudible. Of course auditoriums with poor sound treatment just make matters worse because the sound bounces off of the hard walls killing the dialog intelligibility. The fader should be set by the dialog level and everything else ignored. The rest of the soundtrack whether it is sound effects, music or explosions will fall into place. It is only after that setting is determined that you can look at the fader and say "damn my tech or my sound system sucks" if you see it playing very far off of 7 and not calibrated at 85dbC. Similarly, that fader should hardly ever have to be adjusted, with the only exceptions being the occasional bad mix (like most Bruckheimer movies). Also note high frequencies, frequency peaks and over-EQing of the system makes a system sound hurt the ears. If you don't believe me, take a system that sounds great and turn up an EQ pot, ideally one of the more aggravating ones to the elderly such as 4-6K and then go take a listen. You won't be able to tolerate the fader as loud and your entire system will have to be run quieter, destroying the integrity of the mix. Also don't forget that committee that was responsible for lowering trailer volume flat out failed. I still run trailers at 4 and the feature at 7, just like I did 10 years ago. If you are not making such an adjustment, then I'll bet the majority of your complaints come during the trailers. Then at that point you have your audience afraid of sitting through a 2 hour movie of it being "too loud", even often if it isn't. Lower the trailer volume to a "I am sitting at home watching tv" level and the complaints will be greatly cut down even if you do nothing else to your sound system.  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-19-2008 08:10 PM                        yes the trailers have always (always for 30 years) been an issue! It seemed to get even worse with digital and your right the group that was suppose to fix it did nothing that I can hear to fix it! Perhaps they should be in hell with the bad techs have I mentioned that I think bad techs have a special corner in hell reserved for them. I can't tell you how much I get peeved at a "sound technician" that doesn't even bother to walk in and hear the system after he has "set it" and how many of them didn't actually set it right! I have one um so called technician that set sound recently. The showing we had the commercials (not being in DTS) play in optical and had tons of voice in the surround. I told him that he didn't adjust the system right we have voice voice in the surrounds. He said "NO I looked at the scope it is right" and he left. So I got my scope out and sure enough it wasn't right! It is now though! Yup I have the wet noodle for that dude!  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-19-2008 09:14 PM                     quote: however, any near empty theater will sound louder than any near full theater. We turn our systems up to 7.0 if are 3/4 full or fuller! We run at 6.0 below and turn down on smaller crowds if we get a complaint it is to loud. I ignore you people wanting it louder unless it is only young folk in the theater and I never run above 7.5! Actually, I partially agree. In my experience IF ACOUSTIC IS GOOD (cinema chairs absorbs sound if you don't have the old wood style! ) the difference between FULL-EMPTY is not more that 0.5 point. I heard of a guy raising the sound +1.5 point when the theater is full: this means very very poor sound acoustic or very poor projectionist's ears! However, trust Brad: one subwoofer is very inadequate, for every theater's size... Particularly if it's driven by a big amplifier, with no limiters engaged. More, a well designed sound system is very reliable. I like to show movies to 7 (or so) and in many years never replaced a driver or a woofer in my theaters. Ciao Marco  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 01-19-2008 09:36 PM                     On the trailer volume issue: wasn't there, at one time, a small circuit or PCB design that was tied in with the automation and driven by cues, that could lower the volume down during trailer runs by a the one cue, then on another cue, swing the volume back up when the feature kicks in?  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-19-2008 09:51 PM                        Monte Smart makes (or made) a unit called afterburner that kept the sound from peaking up above a certain point don't know if it worked or not. There are several automation systems that you can set different levels for previews and show! We do it the old fashioned way with the little round knob on the front of the processor! But then my bosses are cheap to buy automation units! Opps I didn't type that did I?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-19-2008 10:07 PM                     I've found several loose speaker installations as a result of this movie... Baffles and speakers need to be seriously fastened down to play this film back in uncompressed digital!!! I think by the time therun is over there will be alot more damage done... this film gives new meaning to what a machine gun fire, tank fire and a 30 story tall monster stomping around town should sound like...  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-19-2008 10:12 PM                     This is one simple solution I used to implement. Nowadays processors such as the CP500 and CP650 can simply have different fader settings hard coded to the buttons. So for example, you could set up button 11 or U1 or whatever you like to be Dolby Digital with a lower fader setting of which your automation would pulse to for trailers, and then pulse normally to format 10 at a higher fader setting for the feature. This of course requires your tech to actually lift a work for an extra 10 minutes, so good luck if you have a lazy one. Also remember there is absolutely nothing wrong with running trailers in good old fashioned MONO. I think most people hear the idea and freak saying "no way will I run trailers in mono", but it is quite effective and every processor can do it, every processor has a "mono trim" control and the tech only need to give the minimal effort of moving only one wire from the automation to enable it. Try running your trailers in mono and watch your volume complaints during the feature (running in digital of course) be greatly lowered.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-19-2008 10:14 PM                     The Panastereo CSP-1200 also does the same level remembering routine. I can't remember if the JSD-80 does that or not... Mark  |  IP: Logged

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