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Author Topic: 'Cloverfield' may have killed the subwoofer Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 01-20-2008 03:03 AM                     Brad, would your mod trick work with CP55 units as well? If so, what would be the wiring config for these processors? For, I've got 18 of these old monsters to babysit and I would think it would be worth it do to do this mod to these processors. thx-Monte  |  IP: Logged Peter David Bruce Expert Film Handler Posts: 187 From: East Anglia -England Registered: Aug 2007 posted 01-20-2008 07:29 AM                    At our site we are running 3x cp650's and 3x cp45's. Unfortunately I wasnt in the company when it was last calibrated by our tech (hes one of the good ones tho!) however we have to run all our screens at volume 5. some a little lower! for the 3 larger screens (capacity between 230 and 300), we use the 650. for our smaller screens (capacity between 104-185)we have the 45's. on the three larger screens we have 2 subs. one got booted in screen one by a group of lads, and has since been replaced. We cannot run any of our films louder than 5 without it become very hard on the ears. I can imagine for the large 1000-seat auditoriums of larger cinemas volume 7 is fine, but in this cinema, id only max it to 6. (and that would only be when print checking) so... i shall observe when they come to do the 2008 calibrations. im sure something isnt right.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 01-20-2008 10:10 AM                        Brad & Marco just about covered it. 1 sub is worthless; 2 is a minimum.. You will surely blow the single unit since it cannot couple to the room, especially without a THX sound wall. Old rule of thumb: if you move any 1/3 octave control more than 1/4 turn or if you use a total of more than 6, you are over-EQ-ed. Another hint: in a poor room, you have complaints of "too loud" you can reduce the subwoofer from +10 db to +5 db. In effect you are compensating for poor mixes. Less woof, but dialog does not suffer like it does when you reduce the overall fader. Louis  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-20-2008 10:35 AM                        Mark have the quality of the Panastereo or the Smart units changed since the merger? I never had problems with any Smarts I used but no a lot of folks that say they have. I was just wondering if the merger had made either one better or worse.  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 01-20-2008 10:50 AM                     Mark, the JSD80 and the XD10P do have fader presets.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-20-2008 11:36 AM                     I disagree with your last trick Louis. In a room with a lot of echo, I don't turn down the sub. I would hit the rolloff harder and run the center a little higher and depending on the room tame down the surrounds. This of course has to be done with a reel the tech is 100% familiar with and has screened hundreds of times to be effective. Removing the low end from a sound system definitely makes it harder on the ears. If you listen to an action film at a good solid volume and then kill the sub and stage low frequency drivers, suddenly your ears will be bleeding and you will be running for the fader. Don't cut the bass.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-21-2008 08:57 AM                        Shouldn't most automation systems have a spare pulse available? One that you could use to insert attenuation pads via a set of micro relays into all 6 channels. The pads would be inserted after the processor output before the amps. It might not even require an added cue, as you could even use the HOUSELIGHTS OUT cue at the start of the feature. Just calculate how much you need to drop the trailer level and get pad values to do that -- or better yet, get variable pots so you can change the drop level as needed. Using Brad's method -- pulsing the trailers in MONO -- if you can get your automation to do that, then it should be a piece of cake to pulse the attenuation pads instead. BUT...hold on. There's no beauty in that -- it's purely technical. However there IS beauty if savvy booth guys in most every booth in the country DOES setup the booths' automation systems to follow the Miller Trailer Initiative, i.e., trailers play in MONO. doing that, I think we would solve the immediate problem but more importantly, we would be attacking the root cause of the problem. Playing the trailers in MONO could accomplish quite quickly what the SMPTE Loud Trailer Initiative failed to do in over 10 years. How? What better way to wake up and really impress the trailer mixing engineers that if they insist on mixing their trailers hotter than reference level, then their damn super-fancy-6-channel-trailer-audio-mix which they busted their butts over to get finished by deadline and agonized to get every nanosecond perfect (at least perfect to their half deaf "trailer" ears)-- that trailer...their baby, their oh-this-mix-is-gonna-win-me-an-award, will never be heard in any theatre except in MONO because of the Miller Trailer Initiative! That should really make them wake up and smell the ears bleeding. And hey, Mister Trailer Audio Mixer -- if you feel you need to wow all those studio and ad agency suits that hired you to mix their trailer, then how's this for simple: TURN IT UP IN YOUR DAMN SCREENING ROOM and leave our theatres alone....or MONO it will be! BTW, Smart's Afterburner was a weak solution to the problem and I don't think it rose to the challenge because, while we all probably wouldn't loose any sleep if audio on the Attraction Reel (excuse me, trailer pack) were compressed, doing the same to the feature track is unacceptable. The Afterburner, as far as I know, was ubiquitous -- it stayed in the circuit during the feature as well. Smart was hoping that it would be properly set to have a hard ceiling threshold that in theory would NOT affect the feature, but that requires a competent tech (you know, UNLIKE the same ones that set up systems so sound has to be played at fader 5). And it requires fools with fat sticky finger not mess around with it. Besides, I think it was only meant for analog sound anyway; with digital's much wider dynamic range, there would be a big problem with all those special sound effect hitting the ceiling threshold and being stomped on. A better a solution is to deal directly with the BAD trailer mix at the source and not do anything to compromise the feature soundtrack. So we are back to playing trailers in MONO!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-21-2008 09:49 AM                     quote: Ron Funderburg Mark have the quality of the Panastereo or the Smart units changed since the merger? I never had problems with any Smarts I used but no a lot of folks that say they have. I was just wondering if the merger had made either one better or worse. Smart like Dolby has always had rashes of power supply problems... Smarts worst plague was with the MOD-2C power supplies... thankfully I don't have any to service but another chain in SLC has lots of them and lots of problems with them, The MOD 7's although pretty reliable had their quirks and problems and then the EQ circuit in the Mod 8 would clip if the pots were set above +2:00. Even some of the latest 510 power supplies for the CSP-1200 have problems with the traces on the PCB being too small and thin for the current it is carrying. The fix is an easy one not even requiring factory work and all... new production 510's have been super reliable. The rest of the CSP-1200 has been very reliable right up there with the CP-65... but it's still miles ahead of EVERYONE ELSE in sound quality. The main thing with the CSP-1200 to remember is that its a hot running processor... so allow plenty of ventallation above and below the unit... if you do reliability is great. Brad... Two things you may not have considered.... An exhibitor may be obligated by his contract to play trailers in stereo... running them in mono with D-Cinema isn't possible but the use of the remote fader is. Mark  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-21-2008 09:56 AM                        Good heads up, Mark -- very timely for us. We plan on getting one once our budget goes thru. Has that problem been resolved? I know the CSP-1200 is not mass produced and constructed in batches as order come in (at least that's the way I understood it -- that should pretty much insure that a unit purchased in the next few months should have that issue resolved?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-21-2008 01:55 PM                     Yea, should be fine Frank. There is no better analog film playback available today. Just be sure to allow 2 spaces below and above the unit. All those analog IC's generate alot of BTU's!!! Mark  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-21-2008 05:58 PM                        Mark, Thanks for the update. I had really good luck with Mod 7's and never a lick of trouble I had two of them in my 8-plex! I had one in my home theater as well. I have read they have a new Mod 7a processor which is essentially the same as the Mod 7 but with the new parts since some of the mod 7 parts were discontinued from their supplier! I had heard several of the Panstero units and liked them but I was a poor man when I owned theaters a lot more poor now that I just work others!  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 01-21-2008 10:32 PM                        quote: Mark Gulbrandsen An exhibitor may be obligated by his contract to play trailers in stereo... Don't want to start anything here, but I've never heard of such a thing. Has anyone ever seen a contract that obligated an exhibitor to play audio in a certain mode?  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-22-2008 12:23 AM                        Considering that 99.9% of contracts don't require you to play trailers at all (excepting some Disney/Pixar and Warner Bros/Harry Potter movies), I seriously doubt there are any requirements that they be played in stereo or whatever. Disney tried to force the issue of turning the house lights 100% off during their trailers, and we all know how far that went.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-22-2008 01:28 AM                     quote: Mark Gulbrandsen Brad... Two things you may not have considered.... An exhibitor may be obligated by his contract to play trailers in stereo... running them in mono with D-Cinema isn't possible but the use of the remote fader is. Like the last two replies, I've never heard of such a retarded thing (although I'm sure the studios would just LOVE to put that in their contracts...along with playing it at "10" and running no less than 3 hours of previews before the feature.) As far as D-cinema goes, score more points for QSC's "BASIS" system. Just setup a separate config file to tame things down (or totally mute some channels if you like) and screw 'em. I like Frank's first post on this page.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-22-2008 09:16 PM                     I've had zero problems with the CM510 supplies and I have had a fair number out there. I think I've had maybe 1 failed CM410. Then again, I allow 1U above and 1U below the CSP1200 (or any Pana equipment since it needs to breathe) as well as I normally have my racks blown WITH FILTERED AIR...not the typical "dirt pump" that many racks use (just a fan in the top without any filtering). Steve  |  IP: Logged

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