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Topic: Format 42

Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-03-2008 04:31 AM

quote: Martin Brooks
Apocalypse Now was the first commercially released film with split surrounds (Format 43) (Superman had some experimental sequences with split surround). That was released in November, 1979.

November??? Neither one of those was released during that month!

"Superman" had a nationwide, saturation release in December 1978. "Apocalypse Now" was released in Los Angeles, New York and Toronto (on a guaranteed-seat, pseudo roadshow basis) on August 15, 1979. A handful of other major markets started their runs in September, and the nationwide launch began Oct. 10, 1979.

(I guess you could say "Apocalypse" was in release during November of '79!)

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 03-03-2008 05:59 AM

Sam was close...500Hz was the "Crossover" point for the surrounds. Tracks 2 and 4 provided the stereo surround information above 500Hz and track 6 provided a mono surrond information below 500Hz for format 43 capable theatres. Those that could play only format 42 would send track 6 (Which was recorded full-range) to the surrounds as normal and 250Hz and below from tracks 2 and 4 to Le/Re as normal.

This gap between the 250Hz bass and 500Hz HF for surrounds ensured no bleed through on the track. Also, the 500Hz crossover was convienent as most all speaker systems for cinema at the time were 2-ways and almost all had 500Hz crossovers. As such, a Non-Dolby 70mm theatre (and they did indeed exist into the 1980s) could merely disconnect their HF drivers on Le/Re speakers and play a format 43 film with or without NR (I've seen some venues that had 6 Dolby 361 NR frames).

So, as you can see, format 43 was indeed very backward compatible to existing systems and as such, a very clever format given its past and what it was expected to do.

The SA5 for the CP100 (see the manual here on F-T) more than resembled a CP50. Think about it...A CP50 has most of what one needs for split surrounds in it... a pair of NR cards, meters for calibration, 1/3-octave EQ and even some control-logic on board. The difference was the Cat 158 which did the stereo surround work. In the SA5 it also had the job of splitting up the bass and sending it out to the 105Ds in the CP100. The CP200 did not use that particular feature but the CP200 did indeed use the same Cat 158.

Steve

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-03-2008 10:19 AM

I believe the crossover point was lowered later to 250 Hz by use of sharper filters, but not so important a point.

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 03-03-2008 12:12 PM

Note that the Chronology on Dolby's Web site mentions November 1979 several times.

Dolby Chronology web page

quote:
Six-track magnetic 70 mm prints of _Superman_ were used in presentations with "stereo surround," that is, separate Left and Right Surround channels rather than the usual mono surround track. This development, the forerunner of today's 5.1-channel format, was made public for the first time in November 1979 with the release of _Apocalypse Now_.

quote:
November 1979
Dolby Stereo 70 mm format with stereo surround publicly announced with release of _Apocalypse Now_, showing in 15 theatres equipped for this forerunner of today's 5.1 format.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-03-2008 05:11 PM

Dolby's Company Chronology is full of errors, often in cases where numbers and dates are cited.

Saying they "made public" or "publicly announced" the split-surround format during November 1979 sounds like a bizarre issue of semantics. Or is it meant to imply the company issued a press release during that month? At any rate, by November, "Apocalypse Now" had opened in all of the major North American markets.

quote:
November 1979
Dolby Stereo 70 mm format with stereo surround publicly announced with release of _Apocalypse Now_, showing in 15 theatres equipped for this forerunner of today's 5.1 format.

I'm aware of 16...but who's counting! [Wink]

quote: from an aborted project of a few years ago

08.15.1979 ... Los Angeles, CA: Cinerama Dome
08.15.1979 ... New York, NY: Ziegfeld
08.15.1979 ... Toronto, ON: University

09.21.1979 ... Newport Beach, CA: Newport
09.21.1979 ... Orange, CA: Cinedome
09.21.1979 ... San Francisco, CA: Northpoint
09.21.1979 ... San Jose, CA: Century 22

10.03.1979 ... Washington, DC: Uptown

10.05.1979 ... Calumet City, IL: River Oaks
10.05.1979 ... Chicago, IL: State-Lake
10.05.1979 ... Evergreen Park, IL: Evergreen
10.05.1979 ... Montreal, QC: York
10.05.1979 ... Niles, IL: Golf Mill
10.05.1979 ... Oakbrook, IL: UA Cinema
10.05.1979 ... Vancouver, BC: Stanley

10.10.1979 ... Boston, MA: Cinema 57

Plus, key international bookings in Paris (09.26.1979), Sydney (11.15.1979; Hoyts), London (12.01.1979; ABC Shaftesbury Avenue), and Tokyo (03.15.1980). It was also screened by special arrangement at the Moscow Film Festival in August 1979.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 03-03-2008 06:30 PM

FYIW: I installed the SA-5 at the Uptown in DC. Also reactivated the amps and speakers left over from Sensurround, fed from the SA-5. Really big thump on Apocalypse Now. Louis

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-03-2008 08:08 PM

Superman was a Beta site for split surrounds and was not announced or promoted. Apocalypse Now was the feature for which this split surround process was engineered. Dolby and Zoetrope were right around the corner from one another back then and Tom Scott, Walter Murch, and Mark Berger who later went on to win awards for sound were in constant consultation.

Century 21 was the San Jose location, not 22. I know because I was there every day working with Zoetrope for RCA Service, just before moving over to Dolby Labs.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-05-2008 01:52 AM

I can't believe Dolby Labs and/or United Artists didn't foot the bill for the install of the SA5.

quote: Variety; Aug. 31, 1979

70mm 'Apocalypse' Equipment Costly For Exhibitors

Theatre operators who will be screening the 70mm version of Francis Coppola's "Apocalypse Now" in the suggested Dolby "surround sound" format will be asked to fork over almost $4000 for the necessary equipment. Coppola reportedly delayed the United Artists release until he could perfect the "quintaphonic" wraparound soundtrack for dialog, sound effects and an electronic-rock music score.

Dolby Laboratories Inc., San Francisco-based as is Coppola's American Zoetrope Co., designed the Dolby SA5 surround adapter specifically to enable playback of separate left and right (stereo) surround information contained on the 70mm magnetic prints of "Apocalypse Now."

To use the adapter, an exhibitor must already have Dolby model CP100 stereo units, equipment most houses with the capability to show 70mm pix already possess.

UA marketing veep Robert L. Friedman said some 15 theatres are eventually expected to play 70mm versions of "Apocalypse," including the three situations now showing the credit-less version of the war epic in New York, Los Angeles and Toronto. UA is not picking up the tab for any of the special Dolby equipment needed in the 70mm engagements, said Friedman.

In printed instructions to exhibs, Dolby noted that "Apocalypse Now" is "particularly demanding of the theatre sound system, as are an increasing number of Dolby Stereo 70mm releases."

Track configuration of the stereo surround format used for "Apocalypse" differs only slightly from other 70mm Dolby prints, primarily in having five distinct sound tracks. In addition to the usual left, center and right screen speakers, system uses extra left and right screen speakers, as well as a second surround power amplifier and the special SA5 surround adapter.

Basic cost for the latter unit is $3700, with three options available that could bring the total price to almost $5500. Provisions are also made for trade-ins on now-outmoded Dolby equipment.

Dolby also notes that "while the special directional effects created for 'Apocalypse Now'...will not be reproduced with conventional Dolby Stereo playback, the film will sound as good as conventional Dolby Stereo 70mm releases when played without the SA5."

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-05-2008 10:35 AM

I remember all that.

Zoetrope kept altering the mix to what would playback in a very good cinema. I saw the Napalm and strafing scene perhaps 50 times with subtle (to me)differences based on what the speakers could handle at the Century 21 San Jose. This was also going on at the Nothpoint IN SF.

This was a house with A4's, added subs, and three banks of A7's on Left surround, Right surround, and a Rear surround channel. This arrangement worked very well on a dome stadium house.

This Cinema had an 8 channel Ampex system with the 120 Watt Ampex amplifiers spread over 5 racks. The amps were deemed too noisy and unreliable and were replaced with of all things, TOA amps (Yuk) that were considered good for their day.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 03-05-2008 09:26 PM

OMG, TOA's! [puke]

FWIW, didn't the SVA version of "Apocalypse Now" have no surround information at all? For some reason, I'm thinking that and "Xanadu" were a couple of the rare Format 03 pictures.

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Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 03-05-2008 09:39 PM

When I saw "Xanadu" first run at the Mann's Chinese twin theatres in Hollywood, there was a surround track.

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-06-2008 12:07 AM

There is always a bit of a "magic" surround track, but the matrix was not as discrete as it is now and the director or head sound mixer would deem what was leaking out to the surround unusable and ask it be turned off. Problem was the cinema always wanted the surrounds throbbing off the walls.

Funny, the Apocalypse people actually put a letter in the film can asking the surround power amp be turned off. There were a lot of 2 channel Crown amps back then and techs tended to use one amp for the center and surrounds, so guess what happened?

Murphy Law.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-06-2008 07:28 AM

I saw A.N. at the UA-150 in Oakbrook... the place always sounded like the eq was way off... no bottom end from the day it opened to the day it closed... strange for such a big place... Excellent picture though with Super Cinex's and DP-70's.

Mark

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 03-06-2008 08:30 AM

35mm original release prints of Apocalypse Now "officially" had no surround. The helicopter attack scene did indeed have outstanding surround, but that was it. The story at the time was, and I don't know how true it is, was that the sound mixers added the surround for that sequence on their own, without studio/Coppala approval.

Xanadu was Dolby A stereo with surround.

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