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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: Cutting Manufacturing Costs and How it AFFECTS Product QUALITY
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 05-12-2008 08:32 PM
ISCO and Schneider "enjoy" the fact that they are both in the same country and both are considered the other's only true competitor.
While I do not agree with Brad (or Mark, for sure) on Christie's comparative nature to Kinoton on most technical aspects, there is no wiggling around the $1.55 to the Euro in that Christie's stuff is sourced primarily in countries that are somewhat tied to the USD. The same holds true for Strong brand products, regardless of what one's opinons of them are. Strong is finding exports to be booming, however, as US stuff now appears "value priced" to the mighty Euro.
If there was a US based lens manufacturer still in the Cinema business...then you would see people rationalizing the quality of the lens on a price comparative basis as well.
If the Free Market truely worked in a vacuume, then you would see projector manufacturers of all Euro countries moving their production to cheaper places like the US (not necessarily China as their strength in cheap labor comes from massive quanity, which this industry has NEVER qualified)...however this does not seem to be the case for these companies that seem to have some loyalty to their workers and industry, not to mention the expense of moving the tooling and some personel around just to constantly chase the cheaper currancy. It wasn't too long ago when the Euro was but a mere $0.80...Something like 7-years ago and a PK60D sold for LESS than most any American made machine, similarly equippped!
I have witnessed most all of the Euro manufactuers "eat" the majority of the dollar/euro losses too. While there have been increases that once seemed to track the difference in trade...the last several seem to be only fractions of those increases.
Steve
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 05-13-2008 09:07 PM
Again Mark...please post your examples and studies on the subject...not just a manufactuer's reason to buy THEIR stuff...you always seem to choose the worst sources for your information...the people that have something at stake in swaying one's opinion. Personally, I don't much care about BBR...just stating WHY a manufactuer would make their heat sink black or other darker color than "natural." I wasn't trying to get philosophical with you. Perhaps you should tell Christie to start anodizing their heat sinks since that might work better...duh!
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Actually Steve... Many Kinoton parts are made here in the States by LaVezzi.
There are SOME parts OEMed by LaVezzi...not really what one would call "many" as a percentage of the machine.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Before you make judgment take a look at the current production that comes from the Christie factory.
I have and...? Has Christie improved their machine...constantly (well at least changed it)? Sure...I mean...they only discovered the round tooth belt...15-years after Strong standardized it on Simplex...then again...Christie discovered the curved gate a mere 30 or so years after...well....most everyone else.
So let me get this straight...you want to compare a projector, the Christie, that has been fiddled with (just to get it to work properly mind you)...to essentially a Kinoton whose gear train and film control system essentially goes back nearly 50-years (A and D series)? What do you want...a medal that what you are pushing is almost as good? It isn't better. If you run target film, you will find that the Kinoton remains steadier, still can put out a higher resolution and yes remains cheaper to maintain (sorry the bicycle chains don't wear like your belts nor introduce elasticity into the precision). The Kinoton mechanical machines also are more light efficient than the Christie as Christie still uses that tiny shutter (now single bladed...how many years did that take?) which brings it up to about the equivalent of an 8" bow-tie shutter in efficientcy (less than a Century). Kinoton uses a single wing shutter too...only larger to make it MORE efficent than a Century (or Simplex). Whats left? The soundhead? It has never been Christie's shining moment...though it now, at least, works. I guess a second medal is in order.
On the ancillary side, I'll give the turret to Christie...though we rarely use turrets. I would also give the single lens holder to Christie, if they still made it!
But okay...that is comparing a upteenth-million revision Christie P35-GPS in 2008 with essentially a 50-year design...lets look at Kinoton's evolution...the E projectors which came out almost 20-years ago for studios and 10-years ago for cinemas...a significant improvement in image steadiness. This are CINEMA projectors (FP30E, FP40E, FP50E). Their cost is only an incremental increase rather than a category increase as would be the case for Studio or even 35/16 models. Due to the dwinding Dollar/Euro, you are more likey to see them in normal Cinemas in Europe...Kinoton America can probably list who has them in conventional cinemas in the States...probably Arclight and Malco and we have one in the Ambler Theatre with a second going in.
But wait...we are comparing 2008 to 1998 or so...in 2007 Kinoton replaced their standard "E" projectors with the "premiere" line for CINEMAS...these units are 4-5 times more steady than the previous "E" machines which were already much steadier than any mechanical intermittent machine. They are also about 20% MORE light efficient. That is huge! All else being equal, you electrical cost for lighting your lamps drops by 20%...just because of this machine. The increased steadiness also, as a direct result improves resolution (less motion of the frame results in less blurring of the image)...80 lines/mm is no longer a high enough measurement.
So sorry Mark...I guess technically aren't giving 2-cents...you dont' know what you are talking about.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Actually the machining in general on a P-35GPS is still of much higher quality than the Kinoton stuff.
On at least this much we can agree. Christie's machining has always been the best I've seen in this industry with respect to their projector. Kinoton seems much more selective in their precision.
I really don't want this to be a pick on this brand or that...I do not dislike Christie or blindly swear by Kinoton for they certainly have their shortcomings too. But at the end of the day, if you want the best picture and sound...Kinoton is going to get you that, at the end of the day. Whether you want to agree or not...Kinoton is THE standard by which others are judged, not the other way around.
The cost per year on just about any "Cinema" projector...when you look at their life-span...is pretty darn cheap (at least film projectors), even the top-of-the-line...Kinoton E premiere.
Steve
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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster
Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 05-14-2008 08:45 AM
quote: Steve Guttag
Again Mark...please post your examples and studies on the subject...
Here ya go Steve.... found all these in about three minutes. You can also go to Wikipedia and get all the formulas and find out for yourself that I am correct. No, I certainly can't run the calcs... I suck at math... but I could have my wife do the calcs for you... What your calculations will show is that paint INCREASES the thermal resistance of a given heatsink! Note: There are also thermally conductive paints mainly used in the aircraft/aerospace industry but they are EXTREMELY expensive at hundreds of dollars a gallon and its highly doubtful that Christie spent alot of extra money to go that route. So indeed the plain heatsinks are better at radiating than the painted ones. Some smart person at Christie figured that out too and changed that back. When they added the fan under the heatsinks they in effect lowered the thermal resistance of those plain old sinks and increased the efficicncy dramatically.
There was an interesting article written way back in the early 70's that was published in Audio magazine. The Article was written by Brian G. Waghner (of BGW fame) and it was titled something to the effect "Thermal Efficiency of heatsinks as used in audio power amplifiers" Although I don't have ready access to that article I do remember it pretty well. Brian explained in great detail how the calculations for dissipation are done and he also compared different types of radiating surfaces. It was a very imformative article to be printed in a "home Audio" magazine but knowing Brian it more than likely also also made it into other technical journals as well.
________________________________
"Heat Sink Basics:
The reason an amplifier has a heavy aluminum outer case (heat sink) is to help dissipate heat. The heat sink is needed because no electronic component is 100% efficient. This is especially true in most audio circuits because they require a voltage drop across the output transistors in order to reproduce the audio signal. As you already know, if there is a voltage drop across a device (wire, transistor... anything) and current flowing through that device, power will be dissipated (in the form of heat) in the device. All semiconductors (transistors, rectifiers, regulators...) which dissipate significant amounts of power are mounted tightly to the heat sink (to provide a thermal connection between the two). You should also know that electronic components become more susceptable to failure as their temperature increases. This is the reason that amplifiers (or any device which supplies or converts power) must have a heat sink. If there were no heat sink, the temperature of the electronic components would quickly reach unsafe levels and they would die a horrible painful death. For example... If an amplifier is taken out of it's heat sink and played at normal volume levels into an otherwise safe speaker load, the amplifier would fail in just a few minutes.
Surface Area:
Most heat sinks have fins and/or ridges. The fins are used to increase the surface area. The extra surface area allows more metal to come into contact with the air which allows the heat to be dissipated more quickly.
NOTE:
Do not paint a heat sink. Most heat sinks are anodized aluminum. Painting a heat sink (especially if it's a thick coat of paint) is like putting a blanket on the amplifier. If you absolutely must paint the heat sink, use the lightest, thinnest coat of paint possible.
Thermal Conductors and Electrical Insulators
Thermal Grease:
No matter how good production methods are, the metal surfaces of the heat sink and the metal mating surface of the semiconductor will not be perfectly smooth (as shown below). When mating semiconductors to a heat sink, you'll generally use a 'heat sink compound' (the white grease that you often see when you open an amplifier or other electronic device with high power dissipation) between the metal surfaces to help fill in the microscopic irregularities. Without the grease (compound), the effective surface contact/area would be greatly diminished and result in higher semiconductor operating temperatures and therefore higher failure rates of the semiconductors. This metal to metal contact (no insulator between the sink and the semiconductor) is the most efficient way to transfer the heat from the semiconductor to the sink (except for soldering or welding to 2 pieces together).
Mica Insulators:
Mica is a hard clear crystalline material that can be split into thin sheets. It is a very good electrical insulator and a good thermal conductor. It's used to insulate semiconductors from a heat sink. If the heat sink is electrically conductive, you must have some sort of insulator between the semiconductor and the sink to prevent a short circuit. The following 2 images show a semiconductor and its respective mica insulator.
Kapton©/polyimide:
polyimide film is used by some manufacturers for electrical insulators. It is an amber colored film that can handle temperatures as high as 800°F. The following picture shows what polyimide film looks like.
Sil-Pads:
Sil-pads come in a few different varieties. The most common is a silicone rubber material reinforced with fiberglass. A different version has 2 thin silicone rubber layers sandwiching a layer of polyimide film. The following is an example of a glass reinforced sil-pad. Many manufacturers use sil pads because they don't require grease to perform to spec (which makes assembly quicker and easier). All others listed on this page require thermal grease to properly conduct heat.
Metallic Insulators:
Some manufacturers use a metallic insulator like anodized aluminum. The anodizing process creates a thin aluminum oxide layer which is an electrical insulator. This is a very effective thermal conductor. The following is an example of a metallic insulator.
Thermal Impedance/Resistance:
Some electrical insulators are more efficient than others in transferring heat from a semiconductor to the heat sink. The thermal transfer efficiency is expressed by the formula Rth=°C-in˛/W and says that... for every square inch of area, the temperature will rise a given number of degrees celcius for every watt of dissipation. If the specification says 0.5°C/W and you have 10 watts of dissipation, the temperature of the semiconductor is is going to be 5°C higher than the heat sink. From best to worst (of the types listed) I prefer... aluminum oxide, mica, kapton and lastly sil-pads. Remember that the formula expresses the RATE that the insulator can conduct the heat. All of them can transfer the heat but some can do it more quickly.
__________________________
"Painting Heatsinks?
So painting a heatsink (well not the base) to give it say a new color, i.e. HOT PINK affect the performance? I'm pretty sure if you do this, you would have to use paint that would be to stand up to much warmer temperatures. From what i can imagine, paint would act like insulation, thereby rendering the heatsink useless."
"short answer: NO! Do not do this..
(Stares at the heavens wondering why someone would even think of insulating an item intended to disipate heat)"
"They went through all the effort of making the whole case into a heatsink. Cool. Why then paint the heatsink? painting reduces the thermal efficency compared to bare metal."
"Thermodynamics 101: the case mostly looses it's heat by radiating it into the surrounding atmosphere. For maximum effect you want the inside nice and polished, and the outside matt black, preferably anodized black."
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Thats really hilarious!
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