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Topic: How do I get my long shaft out of this hole?

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 09-02-2008 12:28 AM

How does one knock the old one out? It doesn't look like it'd go anywhere unless it was melted down. I am wondering why Neumade never bothered to offer better spindles for this table... or did they just stop altogether back in the 40's and any replacements since then are by 3rd parties?

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-02-2008 03:31 AM

I would take it to a small engineering workshop to get it done. I had one man company near me who made me 1/2" spindles and fitted on new ball race bearings for my Westrex double sided long playing tower at a fraction of the cost that Westrex and others charged.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 09-02-2008 07:05 AM

While it is true you can replace the R9 key on the shaft, I found there's usually no one at a theatre who has what is needed to press out the broken key and press in a new one. Also, there may not be enough of the key 'hole' left to retain the key. After replacement, the key sometimes will be loose, and wiggle around, breaking again soon after. If you have access to tools and ways to fixture the shaft, sure, but there's just very few projection room staff that can do it. That is why I suggest replacing the entire shaft.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-02-2008 07:48 AM

quote: Joe Redifer
How does one knock the old one out? It doesn't look like it'd go anywhere unless it was melted down. I am wondering why Neumade never bothered to offer better spindles for this table... or did they just stop altogether back in the 40's and any replacements since then are by 3rd parties?

Joe,

With all due respect to John... that is why the Kelmar table exists!

Mark

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Rick Raskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1100
From: Manassas Virginia
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 09-02-2008 04:26 PM

"How do I get my long shaft out of this hole?"

That's quite a title.

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999

posted 09-02-2008 05:40 PM

Well, admittedly the original PRT not my favorite table. If I still had to rewind 2000 foot reels all day, I'd rather have the Kelmar. OTOH, if I worked in a multiplex where I most likely would be rewinding 6000 foot reels, I'd rather have the newer PRT Ultra.

You have to give the original PRT a bit of a break, though. It was designed and sold starting in the middle 1960's, one of the first tables to have changeable spindles. It was discontinued (I think) in 1994.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 09-02-2008 06:01 PM

I don't think any rewind bench has a total lock on good/bad designs. Kelmar uses flimsy spindles that bend REAL easy. Their keys will fall out too, with enough use. One has to lift the reel a bit higher on a Kelmar. The 2nd power head on a Kelmar does not offer an torque compensation. The Kelmar also doesn't provide a great means of splicing without potentially scratching the film on the flanges. Now the Kelmar has many good things about it too....in fact, it is our most popular rewind table and we sell a fair number of them for reel-to-reel operation.

Steve

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 09-02-2008 06:28 PM

quote: Rick Raskin
"How do I get my long shaft out of this hole?"

That's quite a title.

Yeah, I had a totally different visual when I saw the title.. [Smile]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 09-02-2008 06:55 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
The Kelmar also doesn't provide a great means of splicing without potentially scratching the film on the flanges.

You'd have to be pretty clutzy to accomplish that. In fact the same could be said of just about any rewind bench where the reels are in front of the table edge.

quote: Mark G
Joe,

With all due respect to John... that is why the Kelmar table exists!

OK thanks. I'll see if they have one next time I go to Home Depot. Anyway I hear that the Kelmar table is much too expensive for what you get. Granted, it is the table I am most familiar with. I've heard there is a custom PRT Ultra 2 table out there that winds bidirectionally and is significantly cheaper than the Kelmar.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-02-2008 07:41 PM

Get a TECCO table and rewinder and your are set [Smile]

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-02-2008 08:25 PM

If the Kelmar shafts bent any easier you would have to put a prop under them over night so gravity wouldn't deflect them.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 09-02-2008 08:51 PM

TECO is out of production......but they will build them if you pay for a run of castings. [Smile]

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-02-2008 09:48 PM

Why are people having so much trouble with the Kelmar shafts? I've seen the keys break (usually when someone tries to rewind a 6000' reel with the key-drive shafts), but the 5/16" shafts only seem to bend when people drop them. The 1/2" shafts and 16mm shafts are quite sturdy. The only other issue that I've seen with the Kelmar table is that the wiper in the rheostat (autotransformer?) sometimes comes loose, but that is easily fixable.

The usual problem with the Neumade PRT table seems to be that the powered shaft does not turn freely when the power is turned off. If one feels a defect while inspecting a print, the natural reaction is to stop the motor and turn the left-hand reel backwards to find the bad spot. With the Neumade table, this tends to break the key on the right-hand shaft.

Were the PRT tables intended only for rewinding and not for film inspection? If so, then I can understand why they were designed as they are. If not, then this seems to be a major design flaw. I hope that the current-model Neumade table does not have this issue.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 09-02-2008 10:40 PM

quote: Scott Norwood
The usual problem with the Neumade PRT table seems to be that the powered shaft does not turn freely when the power is turned off.

Yes, it fights you. Even if the switch is centered it will fight you for the first few seconds and then finally give in and spin somewhat freely. Maybe I will try unplugging it from the wall when I need to do this. Usually I just backspin the reel on the right by forcing the reel itself instead of pulling from the left (which will cinch-damage the film on the PRT table).

Also, I do not understand the need for the right position of the switch which is balls-to-the-wall full tilt mode, no variables. There is an adjustable knob, why not just let it go all the way up to that point? It sucks to accidentally flip the switch to that position. But then again, this was designed in the 1960s back when people were clearly freakin' idiots.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 09-03-2008 08:11 AM

Bitch, bitch, bitch!

Hell, I ran a repertory house for six years (14 different thirty-year-old acetate prints a week on one screen) using a Neumade PRT Ultra rewind. I stopped on EVERY splice and EVERY torn sprocket hole during inspection, too, and assembled to 6k reels with 1/2" bores. Whenever I stopped at a defect and needed to reverse, I always just kicked the right-hand reel off the drive dog, and backed up free as you please by turning the left-hand reel and letting the right one spin on the shaft. (But then, I had a propensity for devising solutions and workarounds. [Razz]

) I often inspected using the HIGH-SPEED position, too.

The speed control is an off-the-shelf Dayton controller, and not Neumade's design. The full-power position is just part of the package.

I rarely broke reel driving keys, since I only used that spindle for trailer flanges. That particular spindle is not for exchange reels; there's an adjustable-dog shaft for that purpose. The only problem I ever had was I'd occasionally break the internal roll pin on a 1/2" spindle, the part that engaged in the driven shaft to turn the whole assembly. But this only happened maybe 3 times over a six-year period of constant daily useage.

After adapting my operating habits to this rewind, I actually preferred a PRT over a Kelmar or a Goldberg, because they would run faster and the height was right for inspection. And, with that many prints a week, I needed the speed.

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