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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Topic: Would you trade a new Horizon 5565 for a Used Century Projector/Christy Platter?
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 03-01-2009 03:04 PM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Sure you still have a handful of capable prpojectionists there in your area. Silver will never be able to be lit evenly enough for you and they are not meant for you to attend anyway... They do however generate huge revenues and put alot of people in the theater seats which in the end is really what matters. Some day you need to experience "real world" movie theaters...
Truth be told...projectionists are crap everywhere (as an average group)...except maybe screening rooms. Exhibitors have bread that sort of "Quality." I have no illusions about phenomenal film presentations being the norm.
I also don't suffer from the illusion that digital will somehow fix that. In fact, your 3D example is just more case in point.
Okay, using SMPTE 196M...in a standard theatre (not a review room), the light on the sides of the screen shall be 75-90% of the light measured in the center (in the case of DCinema, that is 14fL for 2D...and anywhere between 3-5fL for 3D. Sides being defined as 5% in from the edges of the screen. So you need at least 10.5fL (presuming 14fL achieve in center) on the sides for a 2D show. In a 3D show...one needs just a measly 3.75fL presuming you have 5fL in the center. In a review room (my kinda folks) you need 4.5fL on the sides with 5fL in the center.
With a silver screen...it is IMPOSSIBLE unless you curve it just right and that just isn't going to happen because it will induce way too much barrel distortion.
The facts are, in the name of polarized 3D, you have to severely lower the quality of every other aspect of the image. Color, in some cases resolution, luminance, uniformity...it all takes a back seat to the mighty 3D...which, dispite your claims and production's dreams, has not shown that it has or will sell one extra ticket. As I've stated previously, it will shift that ticket sale to a 3D theatre...until such time as most theatres have 3D capability at some point. This is kind of like stereo sound...at one point, it was a selling point...then it hit saturation and it lost all marquee value as EVERYONE had stereo sound (or at least the average moviegoer believes that is the case).
I simply will not lower my standards for a gimmick like this. My question to you is why do you so easily lower yours? I don't mean to imply you don't try to achieve the best 3D experience...but with ANY silver screen presentation, you will never achieve even the most lax of established image standards. It is inexcusable of the industry to propose using such a process until such time as it can do so in an economically viable manner that also meets/exceeds established industry standards.
At least with the Dolby 3D process...light uniformity and color saturation can be addressed. They still need the most light though with a mere 10% efficiency.
-Steve
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 03-02-2009 01:59 PM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
You won't for long. I would have gone the 6kw route since
Actually, I've done some extensive measurements on the CDXL45 (multiple ones)...it drops about 10% of its light in the first 50 or so hours and then doesn't drop another 10% for about 1200-hours...it is the most stable lamp I've come across (light/hour). In fact, I've plotted it increasing lumen output near the 175-hour mark and again near the 400-hour mark.
There is nothing precluding us from going to a 6K in the future. Thus far, the CDXL-45 has done just fine going between 2D and 3D with different current settings too. It does seem to be a very magical lamp.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Also you're at the lower end of the brightness spectrum
Wrong again...with 3D specified at 3-5fL...we are at the upper-end of the spectrum. In fact, on Coroline, they were targeting 4.5fL...we hit that with no problem and had headroom and should be able to achieve that well into the lamp's life (over 1K hours).
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
AND I can very definately say that 3-D does look better when it's brighter... around 7 fl to be exact. You won't begin to see any washed out color effect until about 9fl.
Welcome to Mark's opinions...not the movie maker's. If the studios wanted more light, all they had to do was specify it. In fact, Coraline specified not more than 5.5fL. since 3 is the bottom end of things (by specification), then what you propose is to have a light that is more than double. Your opinion clashes with the reality of the situation, you can't have unsaturated colors if they are being shown at double brightness. Your statement about 7fL is about as worthless as one saying that showing 2D stuff at 28fL looks better...it isn't how the moviemaker saw it when they approved it, more to the point, it is wrong.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Good luck getting 7fl out of a Dolby 3-D system unless you're on an 18 foot wide screen. When exhibition does raise the brightness standard you're sunk.
We'll cross that bridge if it ever arrives. For now 7fL is too high. With a CDXL-60, my numbers show I should be able to top out at nearly 8.5fL for most of its life for flat and closer to 6.3fL for Scope. It would be worse if we merely zoomed the lens for Scope.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Also, if you curve your 1.5 gain screen so you can meet smpte illumination specs then you've probably also lost more pixels than you should have in the process.
That is one sore point in curved screens for DCinema. For film cinema, I have tools at my access to deal with curved screens that do not exist yet in the digital world. Hopefully, the DCinema lenses will catch up with film some day. The problem is clearly worse in "Scope" than in Flat. No complaints yet...nothing critical (captions, subtitles...etc) seems to be in danger of being cut off. I would prefer if DCI would allow image warping to deal with keystone/curves...just throwing away data seems like the worse of two evils for motion pictures.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
All the 3-D installs I've done have been incredibly sucessful at turning a profit. And that was with some pretty measly films... Journey and Bolt. Even My Bloody Valentine didn't do too bad.
You must have customers that don't report their grosses then...nationally, 3D does not pay for itself and is doing worse and worse as the installed base is diluted by new-builds.
And Gord...how can one have a serious conversation with these Chinese projectors? If something sounds too good to be true, it normally is. Only an idiot would have bought a Horizon and not think it would fall apart. It isn't like the domestic projectors (pick one) are that expensive for the money they generate. Even name-brand imports are practically free to run over their life spans (that exceed the average theatre).
Hopefully, they'll get their money back but I wouldn't bet on it.
Steve
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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God
Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 03-02-2009 02:56 PM
quote: Steve Guttag
And Gord...how can one have a serious conversation with these Chinese projectors? If something sounds too good to be true, it normally is. Only an idiot would have bought a Horizon and not think it would fall apart. It isn't like the domestic projectors (pick one) are that expensive for the money they generate. Even name-brand imports are practically free to run over their life spans (that exceed the average theatre).
Hopefully, they'll get their money back but I wouldn't bet on it.
Steve
Well we can try to have a conversation about them, without bringing D-Cinema into the fray in any event. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I feel for those who are trying to deal with that junk, and also for the one person at F-T who is trying valiantly to defend them.
I've said it before in reference to these machines, in response to a comment by that person, who pointed out the excellent light output, etc.:
The best light, steadiest picture, or sound quality (SDDS anyone?) doesn't mean SHIT if the freakin equipment can't go more than a day without breaking down!!
In today's climate, if you have repeated cancelled shows, you can kiss your business goodbye as once a customer is soured by an experience at your venue, THEY ARE NOT COMING BACK..EVER.
As for Benjamin's "dealer", I sincerely hope he discloses who it is and outs them on the "Deadbeats In The Industry" thread.
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