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Author Topic: Smart MOD IIB: Good or not good? Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-11-2010 01:43 PM                     The reverb time is the usual culprit in bad dialogue reproduction and good music reproduction You may want to use a more localized speaker coverage and restrict the seating  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 08-11-2010 03:50 PM                        My point is that you start with the best sound possible and then you can PLAY! Raising the center 1-5 db is good. Strict eq on L & R is good. You may wish to "optimise" the center channel as well. Cut the bass, peak the midrange and maybe boost over 5k. The sound that may sound shrill as a center only, may well blend well with top quality L & R. Just a few hints from along the way. Louis  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-11-2010 06:18 PM                     also remember to increase the slope of the HF rolloff in large rooms  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-11-2010 07:23 PM                     It sounds like echo may be the problem. Aim the speakers at the audience as much as possible. Clothing is soft, and will absorb sound. The back wall is usually the biggest problem, put a rug on it. If the floor is concrete, that can be a problem too.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-11-2010 07:45 PM                     We worked on it some more today. I rolled some of our orchestra shells in behind the speakers to make a baffle wall. This did help. It cleaned up a lot of the icky sounds echoing from back stage and it provided a fairly large (almost 5 dB) increase in sound levels. I have made sure that the speakers are not hitting the walls as much as possible. They are aimed, pretty much, right down into the audience. I redid the A-chain. I understand that if you want to get even "passable" sound out of the Mod-IIB the A-chain has to be dead nuts. I think I've got the best A-chain I've ever seen on this thing. I cranked the center channel up about 2 dB above the left and right. Then the sound contractor that works on our theater sound came and helped me tweak the B-chain. We started with the regular curve then we fiddled from there. Knocked down some around the 500Hz range and rolled off the top a little bit steeper than usual. We got it sounding "pretty good." (Emphasis in the quotation marks.) If it's straight dialog and nothing else, it's intelligible but if it mixes in with music or sound effects dialog gets lost pretty quickly. Regardless of how well we tune it (and we tuned and retuned it about three times today) the dialog is just murky. Even if you're standing right in front of the speaker, it's just not crystal clear. I have done just about the best A-chain anybody can do. Today we got the B-chain set just about as well as anybody could do. At this point, I think we have that thing tuned just about as well as anybody could ever do. It is hard to produce recorded/amplified sound in this room under any conditions but I think we have accounted for that as much as possible with the equipment we have. I am working on getting a new processor. I am hoping we'll be getting a CP650. Cross my fingers! I am aware that, regardless of what processor we put in there, it will probably not be possible to get crystal clear sound in that room without some major changes to the room, such as putting sound insulation on all the walls. That ain't going to happen. One thing I did notice with the Mod-IIB when I was A-chaining it... Noise! Those preamps are NOISY! I noticed quite a bit of noise on the scope while I was working. I couldn't get rid of it, no matter what. I totally disconnected the solar cell lines. I totally disconnected the amplifier lines. I shut down all the power to everything else in the rack except the processor. Looking at it on the scope, I saw about 50 mV. (Scope set to .1V per division. - Noise was about half a square tall.) I disconnected the scope from the processor and shorted the probes to ground. Flatline. I think, right there, with those noisy preamps, I'm shoveling shit against the tide no matter what I do!  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 08-12-2010 12:51 AM                     quote: Robert Minichino Demetris, I think those speakers have too-wide horizontal coverage for this application. The benefit of the Iconyx range speakers is the digitally steerable array otherwise refered to as `beams` EDIT: I accidentaly doublehit the post button. Can a moderator please delete this post  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 08-12-2010 12:53 AM                     quote: Robert Minichino Demetris, I think those speakers have too-wide horizontal coverage for this application. The benefit of the Iconyx range speakers is the digitally steerable array otherwise refered to as `sound beams' aimed specifically at the audience ear level thus avoiding reverberation to the max. I have installed several Iconyx range systems in Cyprus mainly in churches which are very reverb demanding and also in entertainment leisures e.g. Bingo, ball room e.t.c. and they are really magnificent as to how they operate. Now with the IC Live series, the gap between announcements/speech and av entertainment is 0d although you must be willing to spend a heft of a lot of money for those BUT they WILL do the job. Demetris  |  IP: Logged Tom Sauter Expert Film Handler Posts: 163 From: Buffalo, NY, USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 08-13-2010 07:10 AM                        The MODIIB was decent, for the money, and would concur that it is a limiting factor in the quality you desire. I would suggest moving a drape upstage of the speakers rather than the orchestra shell. Shells are often designed to reflect and redirect sound rather than absorb it. A large stagehouse designed for live performance has the effect of making one giant speaker out of everything upstage of the proscenium. Moving the L&R speakers a few feet stage left or stage right could have a significant effect on dialogue intelligibility when background music is playing if you think of it this way. Any dialogue leaking into the surrounds from the MODIIB matrix may not appear as an incorrect sound source but as a subtle echo that is confusing the ear. For fun - and since you have opportunity to experiment - I would try setting up as a center-surround experience or utilizing your sound reinforcement PA for left&right instead and making darn sure that there is no dialogue present in the surrounds  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-13-2010 08:23 AM                     We have a mid-stage black traveler. That needs to be in because, without it, light reflects back through the screen and causes double images. There is a 6 foot black border that comes in directly behind the speakers. Both of those help a lot. In fact, I say they are a requirement. I have experimented with the orchestra shell. It does make an improvement but, you are right, they are too hard. They produce a very "bright" sound. There is almost a 6 dB increase in sound level with them in. We are going to do some more experiments in the future. We might install baffle "wings" on the sides of the speaker carts and insulate them with fiberglass sound insulation.  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 08-13-2010 01:31 PM                     Randy, the baffle wings will help out a LOT. Do that asap. But you really need to replace that processor..you can't polish (despite what the Mythbusters say.) Get a cheap Ultra*Stereo JS series like I suggested some posts back. It will solve a LOT of your current issues.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-13-2010 09:41 PM                     I am working on getting a new processor right now. The comments in this thread have helped with getting that issue through certain people's skulls. I would like an Ultra-Stereo. I have worked with them and I know how to install and operate them pretty well. However, I am trying to get a Dolby. I have a couple of good reasons. First, we present the Met Opera. A Dolby processor has more capability to play the sound that comes in from the satellite. A Dolby would be more "future proof." Second, whatever processor we buy, it will likely be a long time before we buy another. We bought this Smart processor just to get us by until we can get something else. This "temporary" processor ended up being used for fifteen years. I don't want to buy something that will last a few years then have to fight for another ten years to get the upgrade we should have bought in the first place. When it comes to spending money, things can get very strange around here!  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 08-14-2010 02:32 AM                     The USL JSD80D is as future proof as the CP650 model. It does provide also SPDIF as well as Digital input from a D-Cinema server so in case you are not wanting the DD on your 35mm projectors and just want to go analogue there is little reason not to go with the JSD80 unit. And not only that, the newer models (as well as an upgrade to the older ones) do support the 7.1 audio mixing now enchanced in mainly D-Cinema applications. Demetris  |  IP: Logged Marin Zorica Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 671 From: Biograd na Moru, Croatia Registered: May 2003 posted 08-14-2010 04:25 AM                     I recently did A & B chain in one concert hall, 1800 seats with 2,7 sec reverberation time, so mainly intended and projected for live orchestra performance. I was think sound will be very bad, specially dialogue, also they have CP500 there analog only with Vic8 normal front scan reader. Left and Right speakers are JBL Vetec line array, for center there are four JBL active (don't recall type) placed above screen, which is installed in front of stage. As room is very vide, this four center speakers are aimed down and spreaded to cover all seats....after doing A chain I did do B chain with more aimed curve for big room, they did play some movie material and did tweak EQ more, even with CP500 I did get very decent results. Problem is when sound is loud the room amplifies it even more, they have also surround there, but I did think is maybe better not to use surround, as it will mess up more.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-14-2010 10:06 AM                     I agree on getting rid of the Mod 2B ! I feel that you would be better off with SRD capabilities in your instance since the majority of films carry the SRD track... Except Joe's Indian films.. If your budget can't swing it then go the JSD-80 route or then look towards an older analog JS processor but expect to pay at least 50% of the price of a new JSD80 for a clean JS200.. At least the USLstuff is D-Cinema compatable while he Smart is strictly a 4.1processor.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-14-2010 12:24 PM                     I would like to have SRD/Dolby Digital for fallback purposes. 1) We often get scratchy soundtracks. SRD doesn't have that problem. 2) Every once in a while, we'll have a sound problem because of a bad sound track. 3) Redundancy is always good to have. As I said, I'm trying to get as much processor as I can now because, later it will be harder to spend ANY money on an upgrade in the future. If I can't get a Dolby I'll take whatever I can but I have to try to get as much as I can now or else risk getting nothing.  |  IP: Logged

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