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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Author
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Topic: Smart MOD IIB: Good or not good?
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John Hawkinson
Film God
Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 08-15-2010 04:30 PM
Randy, I'm going to buck the trend here and disagree on the processor. I do not think a better processor is going to help you very much here.
The number one thing you can do to improve dialogue is to improve your speakers.
In our horrible live room, we installed a JBL PD5322 (bought from Steve!) and it made a huge difference. The precision directivity line works pretty well in live rooms, I'm told.
I guess you now have a 2360A horn for your medium/high frequencies. I'm not so sure how that compares to the 5322's 2431H with a PT-H64HF waveguide.
I think you should be able to do tests with single-channel audio from an external source (bypass the SMART box) for center channel audibility. Heck, you can just use the center channel output from a DVD player with discrete outputs (this has good repeatibility and low noise characteristics).
You are currently using a passive crossover, right? Again, I would strongly suggest you try bi-amping before you try a new processor. Cannibilize your surround amps or one of your left/right amps for the testing. Heck, good mono (or center/surround) is better than bad stereo!
I also suspect you can borrow a CP55 or a CP65 from somebody (the best I could do would be to lend you a CP50, but I bet there are better-equipped people here) if you just had to try a new processor.
Oh: and people will tell you that you have to have your screen channels matched in terms of speakers. I think that's a load of bunk. Yeah, it would be a good idea to match your left and right speakers, and have your surrounds mostly match, but the center channel doesn't need to match left and right. It is mixed completely differently and a radically different kind of sound (dialog, not mostly music/effects). And the room's characteristics for center differ from its characteristics for left and right. In a perfect world, yes, match your speakers. But first, concentrate on getting a center channel that sounds good that you can live with. Then let all the rest follow.
--jhawk
p.s.: sorry for being out to lunch when you first posted this.
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John Hawkinson
Film God
Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 08-16-2010 09:03 PM
Oh, I hope this isn't too off topic, but I have some speculation.
So, we know that in difficult-to-hear houses, mono often sounds better. On a Dolby processor, mono plays only through the center channel speaker, not through the L/R speakers.
I also wonder about bypass mode. I have no idea what it does on the SMART processor, but on Dolby processors, it plays a weighted sum of center+left/right out all channels.
One of my (again, speculation) expectations here in live rooms is that having the same signal coming from multiple points means that each can be softer and ultimately more intelligable. Of course, you also have phase cancellation effects between the speakers that can be a problem.
So I wonder if the SMART has a bypass mode and how film sources sound in it.
Though what I really wonder if if Randy might not be better off mixing some fraction of his center-channel signal into his left and right channels, so he can reduce the volume of the actual center-channel speaker. Has anyone experimented with this in difficult rooms, and does it help?
Obviously it's not a stock configuration for a processor. And of course Randy has his MediaMatrix that I know he hates, which might help with this sort of thing?
Again, I'd advocate doing careful and repeatable experiments that are independent of a film A chain.
--jhawk
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Sam D. Chavez
Film God
Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 08-17-2010 12:01 AM
"I also wonder about bypass mode. I have no idea what it does on the SMART processor, but on Dolby processors, it plays a weighted sum of center+left/right out all channels."
The CP55/65 hearing impaired output is a weighted sum of Left, Center, Right as John says. The bypass out is I believe the same audio out spread out to LCR so the channel levels depend on how the LCR amps are set relative to each other.
The reason Dolby CP55/65 put bypass mono audio into LCR, was in case the unit was put into manual bypass because of a dead center speaker, amp, etc., instead of an internal fault in the cinema processor. This way, you had two chances out of three to have audio.
I do concur with the view normal mono audio should only come from one speaker as multiple arrival times of the same audio to your ear can only make dialog harder to understand, whether it's from different speakers, walls, or ceiling.
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-19-2010 09:05 PM
Sorry... I received some very bad news in the last week. I haven't been feeling very happy.
I have been trying very hard to keep the horns pointed toe-in so they don't hit the wall but next time I get the system out I'm going to double check that.
Generally, you guys are right. There is little to nothing that can be done to make the cinema sound "perfect" in this room. It's just not possible.
As I said, I told the boss that the only thing that can be done is to insulate all the walls and ceilings. Even then, it won't be 100% because of the big, empty cavern of the stage house behind the screen.
You should have seen the cold stare I got!
I do want the CP650, mostly because I finally want to get a Dolby processor in there. I do think it will make a big difference.
Although almost any good processor will be better than the Smart, I want a Dolby for several reasons. First, I know how to work on Dolby. I am not an expert, by any means but I generally understand what makes them tick.
I like the Ultra*Stereo processors. I have spent a lot of time working on them, too but I think the Dolby has more to offer. It can have built-in Dolby Digital by adding the card(s) and plugging in the reader. It can decode AC3 and other formats. And, even if I end up switching to mono, I know how to make a Dolby processor go into mono mode that still sounds good. Other processors do that too but, as I said, I know how to make a Dolby do that. I have done it.
Remember, we have the Met Opera via satellite. We also play programs on Blu-Ray and DVD. The Dolby can decode the satellite's signal, the Blu-Ray and the DVD without much trouble at all. I know how to make it do that.
I'm working on getting a Dolby. If I can arrange a good deal, I'm sure we'll have it soon. It will take a lot of weight off my shoulders in terms of ensuring I have the best sound I can produce under the circumstances.
But, unfortunately, I just got a 50% pay cut last week.
If I can't figure out some way to make ends meet this whole issue might just be moot.
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