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Author Topic: "The Master" in 70mm in Denmark
Jim Perry
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Las Vegas, Nv. USA
Registered: Jan 2008


 - posted 05-11-2013 07:57 PM      Profile for Jim Perry   Email Jim Perry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Brad, but I ain't buying yer excuse about less wear & tear on using a platter system (vs. changeovers) - if anything, it would cause MORE of that, due to the film going thru a bunch of separate rollers from the system itself - not to mention tension from the take-up platter. Sure, you can "fine-tune it" to the point of "smooth-sailing", but frankly, I always felt
(and still do) that 70mm was NEVER designed for a platter system in the first place - a recipe for potential disaster.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-11-2013 08:36 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The topic has been hashed a thousand times here on the forum. Believe what you want, but I have proven it to many people in the past with actual examples.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-11-2013 08:47 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hashed? By whom? [Razz]

Reel-to-reel is the best and easiest. I believe a search on these forums will find many a discussion on the topic.

Oh and I'd be ashamed to build up a print to larger reels too. If you don't want to run the movie, don't run the movie.

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Jim Perry
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Las Vegas, Nv. USA
Registered: Jan 2008


 - posted 05-11-2013 08:55 PM      Profile for Jim Perry   Email Jim Perry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well Brad, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-11-2013 09:37 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Running 70mm on a Kinoton platter is like a dream.

Any competent operator (who has been trained to project 70mm) can operate that platter with minimal wear and tear on the film. At least as gentle as running reel-to-reel.

Remember, it is a machine. Compared to R2R it is more a more complex machine. Therefore, if not properly used and maintained, it will damage film.

An operator who is not running reels will have more spare time on his hands. A platter operator should be taking that time he would have spent, threading, rewinding and getting ready for the next changeover to keep his platter clean and properly maintained.

Yes, platters can damage film but, if your platters are damaging your film, you aren't doing your job right.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 05-12-2013 04:01 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
So an operator did have roughly 20 minutes to thread their movie.
But not if some of the reels were only about 7-8 minutes. With the need to deal with carbons, disks and needles it would have been tight with just two operators. If operator 1 couldn't leave his machine while it was running then he wouldn't be able to assist operator 2 with getting the other machine ready, e.g. by changing the disks. Nor would he be able to check the work of the other operator before the changeover, which I believe was normal practice, at least in major cinemas. Then there was the amplifier, probably with meters for the valve currents and knobs to tweak from time to time. Also, staffing levels generally, not just in projection, tended to be higher, sometimes much higher, than today; on the railways for example. I don't actually know, but it wouldn't surprise me if such a show involved four or five operators, including a chief to oversee all of the others.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-12-2013 06:11 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
The film would have been nitrate, so the previous reel would have had to be taken out to the rewind room and the next one brought in. Between reels the machine would have to be cleaned, the carbons replaced or the trim adjusted, the film laced up, the disk replaced, or turned over, the needle changed, and then placed on the start mark, film and disk checked, the arc struck and allowed to stabilise before the next changeover. I wonder how many projectionists it took to run a Vitaphone show?
There were quite a lot of technical manuals for projectionists published around the time of the conversion (many of them by someone called James Cameron - no relation, I presume!), which have detailed accounts of Vitaphone booth opearating routine. One of them (can't remember which, sorry) says that a booth with three projectors is essential for sound-on-disc presentation. A lot of theatres didn't take the author's advice, because I've seen many photos of two-projector SOD booths. But if you did have three, that would extend the time available to clean, trim, relace, replace the stylus, clean and sync the disc to 15-18 minutes. But you still needed the manpower to do all that, though.

The other gotcha with SOD was that if a section of film print was damaged, it had to be replaced with the exact same number of frames of black spacing, in order to maintain the sync. There are quite a few more obscure Vitaphone films (including several of the musical shorts that pop up as DVD extras now) which can be seen today in versions with occasional flashes of black in them, because the only element that survived to preservation was a release print that had been damaged and then repaired in that way.

The most interesting manual I've found was a 1934 French one, Le cinématographe sonore, by someone called Pierre Hermardinquer. For some weird and bizarre reason, a copy found its way into the University of Leeds library, where I unearthed it completely by accident while looking for something else. It contains a lot of very detailed information and specs about the various recording and reproduction systems that were on the market at the time, and covers everything from projection routine to theatre design, loudspeaker placement etc.

Thinking that I'd never be likely to come across it again and as the book is out of copyright, I carefully scanned the whole thing with a D-SLR and copying stand. If anyone would like a copy of the PDF, feel free to email me. Basic French is all you need, as most of the text is full of easily recognisable technical terms.

quote: Randy Stankey
Remember, it is a machine. Compared to R2R it is more a more complex machine. Therefore, if not properly used and maintained, it will damage film.

An operator who is not running reels will have more spare time on his hands. A platter operator should be taking that time he would have spent, threading, rewinding and getting ready for the next changeover to keep his platter clean and properly maintained.

The reason why platters have such a bad reputation among rep distributors and archivists in particular, IMHO, is not so much the poor operation and maintenance of the machines themselves, as widespread poor practice in preparing prints to run on them. We've all got "I ran print of [insert blockbuster name here] 1,589 times and it was as good on its last run as on the first" stories, but the fact is that so many operators handled the heads and tails poorly (touching film surface with bare fingers, tearing splices and putting a new one on top rather than carefully removing old tape, coating the edge with Tippex/Whiteout or chinagraph as a lazy form of reel end ID when breaking down ... you name it) that the myth became established that there was actually a technical (as distinct from a human) reason why changeover projection is safer for prints.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-12-2013 12:10 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
But its really not. Grated most platter operators had poor film handling skills for all the reasons you mentioned above, but just how many people (literally, a show of hands please) added extra head and tail leader to their prints when running changeovers? Even those people who regularly ran answer prints and such that had super long leaders, most of those people wound it direct to the reel and STILL threaded at the starting point. Because almost every changeover projectionist operated that way, there was FAR MORE physical handling of the ends of the reels than had it been handled once and put onto a platter. (Again this argument is assuming many runs on a print, not just a couple.)

In the end it was the quality of the operator that made the most difference.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-12-2013 12:31 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with what Leo says above but I would add that changeover operators handle every reel, thread them, run them, rewind them and store them every time they run a show. A platter operator handles the movie one time when he builds it onto the platter then only once more when breaking down.

A good operator, whether he uses a platter or reels, needs to take care of his film. The difference is only in the location of the risk.

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Jock Blakley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 218
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted 05-13-2013 06:13 AM      Profile for Jock Blakley   Email Jock Blakley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Oh and I'd be ashamed to build up a print to larger reels too. If you don't want to run the movie, don't run the movie.
I'm not quite sure how to take that statement. Although there's certainly opportunity for a bad or slack operator to damage the print during build-up or break-down, if a built-up print gives us more time to properly clean, thread, and check the incoming machine as well as better monitor focus, framing, and sound level on the running machine, is that such a bad thing?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-13-2013 08:10 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the over 30-years I've shown movies...reel-to-reel and 70mm...I've NEVER had to build up a print nor had any difficulty in keeping the machines clean for each reel. You make it sound like it is an either/or choice when it really isn't.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-13-2013 09:58 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed with Steve - making up prints onto 6K reels strikes me as the worst of both worlds: the risk factors involved with making up a print, and the risk factors of a changeover show. I only ever did this once in my life, when the platter in one of three screens developed a fault (it was a complicated fault in the Kinoton control unit that caused the feed plate to overspeed, and beyond my competence to fix). We had two projectors in that screen and so, in the three days we were waiting for a replacement to arrive, ran 6K reels simply because we needed to attend to the other screens (operated from other booths in different parts of the buiding) during the hour that they were running, and 20-minute changeovers would have tied us to that one booth. But I can't think of any argument in favour of showing movies that way under normal circumstances.

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