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Author Topic: 70mm Fantastic Beasts Bill Brandenstein Master Film Handler Posts: 413 From: Santa Clarita, CA Registered: Jul 2013 posted 11-17-2016 05:41 PM                     Can someone explain why the whole workflow might have been finished in 4K, but distribution is in 2? That just doesn't make sense, considering that some recent movies (Peregrine, Middle School, and Sully) made it to theaters in 4K DCPs. But couldn't tell you if they actually look it. If "Beasts" really did have a 4K film out, well then, that would make the film experience truly advantageous. If the projectionist does a good job.  |  IP: Logged Jonathan Goeldner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1360 From: Washington, District of Columbia Registered: Jun 2008 posted 11-17-2016 08:12 PM                     quote: Stephan Shelley Correct. 2D is 2k. Hopefully whatever they used to make the 70mm was 4K. wouldn't also IMAX and Dolby work with the 4K files for their respective 'laser' and 'Dolby Cinema' DCP's?  |  IP: Logged Stephan Shelley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 854 From: castro valley, CA, usa Registered: Nov 2014 posted 11-17-2016 08:55 PM                     Just know the general release 2D is 2K. Though where I work we are showing a 5/70mm print.  |  IP: Logged Tyler Purcell Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Van Nuys, CA Registered: Dec 2015 posted 11-17-2016 11:54 PM                        Hey guys... need some HELP! The Arclight Sherman Oaks has a problem with their JJ. I'm not sure what it is, but they need someone to fix it before friday night. If one of you can contact them, they will put you in touch with the projectionist directly to discuss the issues. They wanted to show me the issue, but without loading a test loop, there is no way to really see it and of course, they had to prep for the next screening. The e-mail over there is arclightshermanoaks at arclightcinemas dot com. They said the managers will all see that e-mail and they'd figure something out. So the problem is the film warping in the center at the top of the gate. So the bottom center up to about mid frame is going in and out of focus the entire show. This is a projector from the hateful eight roll out. I thought they had a 70mm projector there prior to hateful eight, but I guess not. We didn't get into details, but I'm an able body and if I can figure out a time to meet up with the projectionist and run a test loop prior to running the film, I'd do it... but I frankly don't know enough. Here is a link to a video so you can see what it looks like. I'm going to also reach out to a few more people to see if they can assist. www.film-tech.com/ubbpics/IMG_0452.MOV Direct link added by Admin [ 11-18-2016, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-18-2016 07:33 AM                     I'd suggest checking the lateral guide roller and put a drop of oil at the point the two halves meat up as well as on the inboard slide section and on the two pivots and work the inboard half in/out and make sure it not only opens and closes easily but also spins easily. That is the quick easy thing to check. Another possibility is the upper stabilizers are not set right and/or the gate depth. With mylar film, getting everything in harmony is can be a trick since it is more "flimsy" than acetate or film with mag stripes.  |  IP: Logged Buck Wilson Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 894 From: St. Joseph MO, USA Registered: Sep 2010 posted 11-18-2016 10:41 AM                     Wasn't I reading something about the gate being way too tight on a lot of the H8 JJs causing stuff like this? Somewhere around here?  |  IP: Logged Tyler Purcell Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Van Nuys, CA Registered: Dec 2015 posted 11-18-2016 11:13 AM                        I'm thinking it's something simple like that. I don't know why they didn't adjust the knob during the show to see if it was the problem, maybe they did. It's still early days, I'm going to send them an e-mail to see if they have time for me to at least talk to the projectionist about it first hand. I'd love to see if they still have the BLS H8 loop, that would be so easy to setup and run to see the problem. Few more notes... There were three people in the booth trying to figure it out, they were examining the gate pretty closely between shows. The manager told me there may be a part missing, which is never good. I assume something was broken/damaged somehow and that's why it wasn't working. The print for better or worse was flawless, I mean absolutely perfect. I saw a few white dots throughout, maybe 20 on the whole print, but that was it. Funny enough, it was VERY grainy, there were scenes that looked like 35mm pushed a stop, that grainy. It was nearly impossible to tell if it was from a 2k or 4k master with this projector problem as you couldn't tell the crispness at all. There were moments I thought it was 2k and moments of fine hair detail which made me change my mind. The end credits (top of the screen) were sharp as a tack with no aliasing, so maybe that's a give away it's 4k. They gave me a free pass, but honestly all I wanted to do was be in the projection room trying to help. One other side note, the sound sucked. The guys who did the 6 channel mixdown somehow screwed up, it was not the theater. That's one of the real bogus things about 70mm projection, it needs a special mix and sometimes they botch it. I saw the same problem on Batman V Superman, but Hateful Eight, Interstellar and Inherent Vice were all perfect. Go figure!  |  IP: Logged Bill Brandenstein Master Film Handler Posts: 413 From: Santa Clarita, CA Registered: Jul 2013 posted 11-18-2016 11:28 AM                     Since they can compare the 70mm and digital side-by-side, I'm looking forward to folks like Stephan and our host Brad weighing in on the AV quality.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-18-2016 11:51 AM                        I am not sure why 70mm would require a different mix than 35mm, assuming that a normal DTS print is being made. It is the same format as 35mm DTS--the only difference is the reader and the timecode on the print. Or is the reference to the fact that 70mm is normally screened in large auditoria and that they sound different from small auditoria? Also, the Interstellar mix had definite issues with dialogue intelligibility in many scenes. The 70mm prints look great, though. As for the theatre with focus issues--can't they just call whoever services the place? There must be dozens of operators and technicians in the LA area with 70mm experience (if not, there should be). Question: how are these 70mm blowup prints being made now? Optical blowup from 35mm camera negative to 65mm IP to to 65mm IN to 70mm print? From 35mm IP to 65mm IN to 70mm print? DI film out to 35mm, with optical blowup? DI film out to Vistavision with optical conversion to 65mm IN? DI film out to 65mm IN? Something else?  |  IP: Logged Tyler Purcell Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Van Nuys, CA Registered: Dec 2015 posted 11-18-2016 01:55 PM                        Ohh I'm sure the "film" version is all the same. I was only referring to the fact the mix was poor. It sounded low bit rate, the LFE was lacking, the front wall was pretty under dynamic and I only heard surrounds once in the entire film. Those aren't format or theater issues, they've gotta be a mix problem. In terms of how they make these prints. This film was scanned out to an internegative and prints were struck off that. I doubt they did anything else because they can laser the soundtrack time code into the film at the same time. So a colored master was made from the finished output. There may have been some issues with the making of the prints hence the graininess in some scenes. Only Nolan and Tarantino do photochemical finishes the old fashion way on their films.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 11-18-2016 05:01 PM                     Tyler, I believe Steve pretty much covered the most likely suspects in regards to the focus issue. My bet is that it isn't the lateral guide roller though. My bet is the physical gate depth alignment, and that requires loosening the entire lens mount which could really create problems for anyone that doesn't know exactly what they are doing and how to align it properly. As Buck expressed concern, yes if the depth is not setup correctly you can literally cause an intermittent to fail and last I checked we can't just call up Strong International anymore and order a replacement. One other option it could be, but probably isn't, is the lamp alignment. If the lamp has a hot spot in the lower center it could be embossing the film there creating a focus issue which would show up worse on any dark scene (and especially the end credits as you posted). If it's that, then that print is permanently damaged though. A quick check would be to run the lamp without any film in the gate or lens in the projector. Using the fore/aft controls on the lamphouse adjust the bulb forward and see if you have a dark spot in the center with perfectly round rings of light surrounding it. (More rings will appear the further you adjust the bulb.) If that doesn't happen, then the projector was most certainly never properly aligned with the lamphouse. quote: Tyler Purcell I was only referring to the fact the mix was poor. It sounded low bit rate, the LFE was lacking, the front wall was pretty under dynamic and I only heard surrounds once in the entire film. Those aren't format or theater issues, they've gotta be a mix problem. On the sound mix, I can assure you that auditorium must be poorly calibrated because the sound was very well mixed. It's interesting you liked the sound in that auditorium through Hateful Eight, but starting with Batman vs. Superman you didn't like it anymore. That pretty much screams some tech came in to "retune" the room after you saw Hateful Eight and did a poor job. quote: Bill Brandenstein Since they can compare the 70mm and digital side-by-side, I'm looking forward to folks like Stephan and our host Brad weighing in on the AV quality. Well I didn't do a direct A/B comparison, but I did do a quick glance (note the start times were about an hour off from each other, so it wasn't comparing the same scenes), but in terms of color, the 70mm seems to have gotten it right on. From a resolution standpoint, they seem to be about the same with the 70mm having an overall more pleasing look to my eyes. The DCP seems to have a hint of edge enhancement which I did not detect in the 70mm. I will have to specifically do a side-by-side comparison of the same scene to comment much further. I noticed some reels were absolutely rock stable with no hint of vertical or horizontal movement, but other reels had a tiny amount of bounce to them (perhaps 1/4 square on an RP91 loop). I saw that same issue with the Hateful Eight prints, so I'm thinking since Fotokem has 2 70mm printers, most probably one of them is churning out perfectly steady prints and the other one, not so much.  |  IP: Logged Stephan Shelley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 854 From: castro valley, CA, usa Registered: Nov 2014 posted 11-18-2016 07:49 PM                     Tyler, I would check the studio guides in the trap. It is possible they got banged in with careless handling and it is pinching the film. I have seen it where someone gets butter fingers and the trap gets dropped and they get knocked in.  |  IP: Logged Tyler Purcell Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Van Nuys, CA Registered: Dec 2015 posted 11-18-2016 11:38 PM                        Hey Brad, thanks for the info. I my lil audio reference isn't very accurate. I didn't see all those movies in the same house. Tho, I did just see a beautiful DCP of "Arrival" in that house and it sounded like a million bux. I've also been watching movies on 35mm in that house since the theater was built and NEVER heard such a flat, non-dynamic mix. I HIGHLY doubt it was a "technical" glitch on the theater side. I don't want to spend my free ticket watching it again in a different theater. The movie was so-so. Update on the issue from Larry @ BLS today. He thanked me for letting him see the problem first hand. However, there are evidently some political issues between Arclight and BLS which need to be settled before they can help. It's upsetting that the San Fernando Valley's premiere theater with working film projectors, has such a major issue. It gives film a bad wrap and to me, it's inexcusable. The Hateful Eight roll-out was a huge problem, mostly caused by lens issues that could have been solved months prior to the release date. I hate to see yet another "failed" 70mm performance, with such a beautiful print. A few thousand people will walk out of that screening wanting a refund and/or just pissed off about the poor presentation. As a filmmaker and someone who cares greatly about presentation, including knowing how to work 35mm and 70mm projectors + owning my own narrow gauge projectors that are constantly in use, I simply get frustrated. Mid way through the movie, I went outside and talked to the manager, he assured me someone was looking into the problem. Yet, standing on the back row of chairs, 3 feet from the lens, looking into the booth, nobody was there doing anything. I was 3 feet away from potentially helping the issue or at least learning what it was in greater detail. THAT to me is the most frustrating part in all of this. I'm glad the manager said I could look after the fact, but honestly, I'm not up to the challenge. Even though I'm very mechanically inclined and of course, re-build my own film equipment, cameras, projectors, flatbeds, you name it... I don't know enough about the JJ to really help. I hope one day to have enough time where I can work with a professional and learn more about these things. I may just visit Larry next time I'm in Boston, which is quite frequently. Ok, enough rant for the night! Thanks guys for all the suggestions, the BLS guys are on it, which means hopefully next time around things will work. Thanks to Larry as well for the prompt response, bravo. Ohh and PS... the print looked like a 35mm print more then anything else. The only 70mm qualities were the lack of dirt really.  |  IP: Logged Geoff Jones Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 579 From: Broomfield, CO, USA Registered: Feb 2006 posted 11-19-2016 11:29 AM                        Hoping to see it in 70MM at the Grand Lake in Oakland today at 3:45. Should I expect a large crowd? How early should I get there?  |  IP: Logged Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 11-21-2016 07:34 PM                    Saw this at the Cinemas 1,2,3 in Manhattan. The theater doesn't look like much on the outside, but it was a great presentation. Practically flawless picture and great bangin' sound. I asked for a booth tour and was shot down. But great little gem of a theater.  |  IP: Logged

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