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Topic: 70mm Fantastic Beasts

Martin McCaffery
Film God

Posts: 2481
From: Montgomery, AL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-28-2016 08:08 AM

Does 4K make any more money for Sony than 2K?

Nope.

So, as far as Sony is concerned, problem solved.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-28-2016 10:55 AM

quote: Tyler Purcell
Here is the problem with 4k finishing... there is no problem. The finishers still go back to the camera originals to make the output. The compositing guys still do all of the effects work in 4k, sometimes even higher resolutions. The software that does finishing is all 4k compatible. In fact, on big shows, I'd bet the final colored output is 4k. The problem lies with studio ownership and theatrical technical services. Once the film leaves the finishing house, it's all down to the distributor to make these critical decisions on how they'll deliver. I bet there is some hiccup in that area of the process which is causing these issues, hence the 1080p distribution requirement from Sony.

I think the problem is running a lot deeper than how the DCPs are being made for theaters. If the CGI, compositing work, color grading, etc. was commonly being produced at 4K resolution we wouldn't be seeing the laugh out loud joke currently being perpetrated on the fledgling Ultra HD Blu-ray format. The vast majority of titles on that format have been artificially up-rezzed from 2K source material. There are very few true 4K movies available.

My own feeling is some bean counters in key places have taken the attitude that digital is digital is digital. Tech specs don't matter. Even if the specs did matter the customers are too stupid to notice. So fuck those customers. It takes quadruple the time to render CGI and other post production tasks in 4K rather than good old 2K, especially when there still is a need to push 3D. Rendering 4K for both eye views will surely piss off some investors. The money spent on that extra render time is "value" that needs to be returned to share holders instead.

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Tyler Purcell
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Van Nuys, CA
Registered: Dec 2015

posted 11-28-2016 12:12 PM

Yep, it's all down to the bean counters. I think a lot of the issue stems from 3d work because everything is converted these days and 2k finish solves a lot of problems. For one, it makes everything softer, so the mess they make with the 3d conversion isn't as noticeable. Also, 2k is simpler for the servers to playback and a lot of older 3D systems can only use 2k anyway.

The lack of real UHD content for BluRay has no excuse though, because anything shot in 4k can be finished in 4k without a problem. 2k and 4k is ubiquitous today, there is no time and very little cost difference. The studio's simply don't require it, so the production companies simply don't deliver it, even if they make a finished product in 4k, nobody will get to see it.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-28-2016 08:24 PM

quote: Tyler Purcell
the company who single handedly destroyed the home video market thanks to the excessive cost of BluRay and non-adoption as a consequence

That's not what did it. The Internet did it. Sales are down due to streaming more than any other reason. Many people, if they DO play spinning disks, are completely satisfied with DVDs and have no need/intention to upgrade. A lot of these people still get DVDs in the mail from Netflix (which also came to life due to the Internet), or they use RedBox. The disk format isn't the culprit.

Then there are guys like me who have favorite movies that they WOULD buy on BluRay, but the "powers that be" don't release them. (Admittedly, my wish list has some pretty low-selling movies.)

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-28-2016 09:48 PM

The movie studios have fast-tracked this streaming trend by using a number of slippery tactics to degrade the sell-through value of physical discs.

First of all the major studios have given "HD Digital" download purchases very preferential treatment, making the download version available as much as a month ahead of the physical Blu-ray/DVD release.

Second, the movie studios putting far less work into their Blu-ray/DVD releases than they did in the past. Many movies are damned near bare bones discs. And if there is a bunch of extras the studios will play games with that content, making retailer exclusives for Target, Walmart, Best Buy, etc. These days movie discs rarely include the movie's promotional content (trailers, TV spots, etc.) unlike movie disc releases 10 years ago. If the movie studio actually does bother making a "complete" collector's release, chances are good they'll screw the customer good in some manner for the purchase. Key example: the "Middle Earth" Blu-ray box set for all the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings movies. WB/New Line wanted $800 for that freaking thing!

Perhaps customers in their living rooms deserve a good bit of blame for the decline of physical movie discs. Streaming via Netflix, Amazon, etc. is certainly creating a situation of race to the bottom economics. Combine that with all the illegal streaming and torrent services out there showing movies currently in theatrical release. However, the movie studios are doing their own thing to kill physical media. I think they want to eliminate retail partners like Walmart, Target, etc. They think they're going to make more money getting everyone to download or stream movies. I'm not so sure the public will be all that keen on it. I personally have yet to buy a download version of a movie. I figure if I have to download it I might as well wait to watch it on Netflix, HBO GO, etc. The quality will be about the same.

Regarding customer preference of DVD or Blu-ray, I see Blu-ray discs taking up just as much space on store shelves (if not more space) than I do DVD. The Blu-ray discs are certainly positioned better in most Walmart and Target locations I've visited. My own feeling is the folks who prefer DVD probably would prefer just as well to watch a pirated version of a movie that was videotaped with somebody's phone or camcorder.

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 11-29-2016 03:50 AM

Bobby, Tyler

I was replying to Frank who was mentioning his bad experience with a 3D film being shown in 2D and he commented "digital has its own hiccups too". Nothing to do with picture quality or resolution. The same would apply if someone showed a scope 35mm feature in Flat: nothing wrong with the system, just muppets not knowing what they do.

Reminds me an old news where a 'manager' explained that digital was so much better than 35mm because "35mm ends up scratched after just a week". System hiccup or muppets?

THEN we can talk about everything else.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-29-2016 11:34 AM

Your response to Frank sounded like a claim that d-cinema doesn't have "hiccups" and mistakes by booth personnel are the only factor that messes up a show.

D-cinema systems can and do have their own "hiccups" from time to time. Servers can crash. Hard discs fail. Bits of the system can hang, causing things like half the screen to go bright green during a RealD presentation. It's not operationally perfect.

Compound those issues with the errors made by booth personnel, like setting a movie in the wrong format and creating cropping/zooming issues or showing a 3D version of a movie in 2D. Pile in policy decisions from management, like trying to squeeze more hours of life out of an expensive projection lamp or running it lower than the recommended brightness level.

Even when the d-cinema system is operating perfectly (no "hiccups") and there are no mistakes made by booth personnel or management the end result is still not nearly as good as it should be thanks to cost cutting compromises made by the people who developed and implemented the standards for d-cinema.

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Stephan Shelley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 854
From: castro valley, CA, usa
Registered: Nov 2014

posted 11-29-2016 01:46 PM

Sean, yes it is dark on screen and it is in digital as well. I tweeked the lamp at the Grand Lake to get a little more light and it helped. It looked better than the digital presentations that I have seen. At the Grand Lake we did have a rectifier issue for the 10pm show the Monday before Thanksgiving and ran the DCP for that show. Brightness wise about the same at the Grand Lake but I have the digital well lit there.

On 70mm it is 2.21 so they must be croping but that is what they did back in the day of 35mm scope blowup prints. And they cropped the image for 35mm for the stuff shot on 65mm.

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