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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Topic: 2001 A.S.O. - DTS discs compatible between 35 and 70mm?
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Paul H. Rayton
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 210
From: Los Angeles, CA , USA
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-21-2018 12:27 AM
Bill's comment above ^^^ is correct. As is widely known among true Cinerama aficionados, the single-strip (65mm) camera was used for many of the scenes on the river rapids of HTWWW. If you look at the images, and study them, one can observe the shots so made, because the 3 respective horizon lines don't misalign in the same manner that they do in the scenes made with their conventional 3-strip camera.
Also, another tidbit -- a few of the battle scenes in HTWWW, in the Civil War sequence, were actually out-takes (or non-used scenes, not sure which) from the movie "Raintree County", from 1957! Again, these were photographed in the single-strip (65mm) camera process which came to be known as MGM Camera 65.
I confirmed these details with David Strohmaier, who many of you will know as our latter-day "Mr. Cinerama", for he's been responsible for all the restorations to date of these original Cinerama productions.
He added that, as was mentioned by Allan Young above, a few extracted 3-strip prints of "Holiday In Spain" were made from the 65mm negative. That film had a difficult career: it started out as the "Smell-O-Vision" show, "Scent of Mystery" (1960), a Michael Todd production. The Smell-O-Vision process, of course, left a lot of people unhappy with the results, so Mr. Todd renamed the show to "Holiday In Spain", and created a few 3-strip prints to try to make something out of it via "Cinerama" exhibition. Sadly, the prints were, per David, very grainy. And it wasn't much better in that format, either.
There was one other show around that era which flirted with (but ultimately did not use) 3-strip, that one being "The Golden Head" (1964), also known as "Milly Goes to Budapest". Allegedly, the production was originally envisioned for 3-strip, and (according to the rumor) a few scenes were actually photographed that way. But then the production company revised their thinking, and so the entire film was then photographed on 65mm film. No true 3-strip prints were made, though it may show the "Cinerama" logo in the credits. But of course, Cinerama corporation seemed to feel the result on screen was close enough to allow their name to remain identified with the movies thus projected in the single strip (70mm) mode.
By the time of the movie "2001" (1968), actual 3-strip projection of new movies was well and truly finished.
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Allan Young
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 125
From: EGHAM, Surrey UK
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 09-21-2018 07:22 AM
quote: Bill Brandenstein
Just to further confirm and confuse the issue: there are scenes in "How the West Was Won," particularly on the river raft, that were shot 1-strip 70mm and then separated to 3-strip.
They used anamorphic Ultra Panavision though, with an aspect ratio much closer to 3-strip Cinerama than Holiday in Spain or 2001.
quote: Paul H. Rayton
There was one other show around that era which flirted with (but ultimately did not use) 3-strip, that one being "The Golden Head" (1964), also known as "Milly Goes to Budapest".
Cleopatra too, according to Wide Screen Movies by Carr and Hayes - "began shooting in Cinemascope, then switched over to the new Super Cinerama, then to Todd-AO. The anamorphic and tripanel scenes were discarded."
(Admittedly not the most reliable of sources, but the statement stands uncorrected in Daniel Sherlock's exahustive list of errors - http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/tips/WSMC20.pdf.)
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Jean-Pierre Gutzeit
Film Handler
Posts: 43
From: Berlin, Berlin, Germany
Registered: Nov 2012
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posted 09-23-2018 10:18 AM
Interesting comments by Paul Raython on the test shots of various films in 3-stripe Cinerama. The GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD also had three-week filming in 3-stripe Cinerama, but I never find a complete listing of all Cinerama test shots.
2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY was to be leased in so calles Cinerama venues only with 70mm prints, which was known during the production, and there are corresponding Cinerama labels on the 65mm Super Panavision's camera blimps. And because of Cinerama Inc.'s dissolving production in the 3-stripe process around about 1962, Ultra Panavision productions were wanted as a large-format system for the Cinerama cinemas, then Super Panavision titles, Todd-AO or Sovscope 70, 35mm blow-up titles which went into 70mm lending, or pure 35mm at last in 1974. Between 1963 and 1967, the new cinemas of Cinerama Inc. were equipped with a more moderate curvature of the screen and opened often with only a single-stripe projection in the last moment (1963: Cinerama Dome, Los Angeles with 120 degree; 1965: Royal Palast Europacenter, Berlin-Germany with 120 degree; 1963: Europa Palast, Essen-Germany and Coliseum London-England with 3-stripe Projection with 146 degree; 1964: conversation of the Gaumont Palace, Paris-France, from 35mm / 70mm to 3-stripe Cinerama).
On page 1, David Kornfeld had taken the research to get a photo of the leaders label of the 70mm premiere version of 2001, which contains the entry "version: Cinerama". On other known to me labels of the 70mm premiere prints this entry is missing. So the entry could have a meaning. Maybe there was a special mix of sound for one or two of the 70mm Cinerama premiere cinemas? Two projectionists of the 70mm premiere in former Cinerama houses confirm a special sound mix for the delivered 70mm print, according to Mr. Kornfeld. Such urgently needed special mixes are very possible and have occurred again and again in other cases (ALIENS in 1987 for example).Varying ndoor equipment? (special Cinerama speakers, Cinerama amplifiers with other curves? Horn speakers with narrower focus?). I never saw a special printer lens for rectified 70mm prints of Super Panavision productions to screen them at the Cinerama curved screen. Such a 70mm theatrical copy would have an image field of about 1.96: 1, with the sides of the image on the copy containing black stripes. From a technical point of view, such a rectified print would have advantages when projecting on deeply curved screens, but the curtain or the lamination of the Cinerama screen would have to be closed slightly.
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Paul H. Rayton
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 210
From: Los Angeles, CA , USA
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-24-2018 12:53 AM
In the interest of keeping the record correct, I've been reminded that, according to The American Wide Screen Museum, "The Golden Head" completed its cinematography using (mostly) 35mm Technirama AND some 65mm film for certain scenes, but was produced by Cinerama, Inc. so their name may show up. (And soon to be released as a Blu-ray, so I hear)
See the article at this following link. It's full of photos, so I can't readily post the full contents directly here, so let's hope the link continues to work: web page
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-24-2018 09:21 AM
So the consensus among you guys is that there never were any 3 strip extraction prints of 2001 for presentation in Cinerama theatres that still had 3 strip equipment? Because if that is an indisputable fact, then my mind is playing some very bizarre tricks on me because in 1968 I had already seen 2001 in NYC at the Ziegfeld (70mm) and then just a little later I was in Chicago and saw it was playing in Cinerama at (I think) the Palace. As I was in awe of the film, no way I could miss a chance to see it again in Cinerama. I recall being quite aware of the join lines at the Cinerama presentation. And while I can't be absolutely sure of the theatre other than it was definitely a Cinerama theatre because that is specifically why I wanted to see it again, I distinctly can recall how bad the join lines looked after seeing it without them in the NY normal screening. I even remember details about the theatre that was unusual -- from the edge of the front isle all the way up to the bottom of the screen, was an area that arched up to the deeply curved screen that was covered with carpet -- a light brown carpet to match the curtains. I recall thinking, funny they put in carpet which is good for sound, but for the picture they should have gone with black. So that is some pretty specific details for it to be a faulty memory, no?
So is this just my imagination, or could there have been at least a few BAC prints extracted for any existing Cinerama houses? MGM certainly poured lots of $$ into marketing this title and since there was the technology to pull three strip prints out of the 70mm neg, wouldn't it be possible there were actually screenings in 3 strip? And if it is a severely inaccurate and faulty recollection (admittedly, possibly enhanced by some natural herb), then this is one excellent example of why eye-witness accounts aren't worth the brain cells that generates them. Dare I say, though, that a bit-o-the-weed probably made the join lines stand out even MORE to me.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 09-25-2018 06:17 PM
quote: Frank Angel
So is this just my imagination, or could there have been at least a few BAC prints extracted for any existing Cinerama houses? MGM certainly poured lots of $$ into marketing this title and since there was the technology to pull three strip prints out of the 70mm neg, wouldn't it be possible there were actually screenings in 3 strip? And if it is a severely inaccurate and faulty recollection (admittedly, possibly enhanced by some natural herb), then this is one excellent example of why eye-witness accounts aren't worth the brain cells that generates them. Dare I say, though, that a bit-o-the-weed probably made the join lines stand out even MORE to me.
Your memory can play bad tricks on you, unfortunately.
Although it's often hard to prove something that's technically possible didn't actually happen, it's still mostly a case of Ockham's Razor. And also, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
By 1968, few Cinerama venues were still equipped for playing 3-strip and you can assume that all of whom were still in business by then, had the capability to play "single strip 70mm Cinerama".
Although there is sufficient proof, the technology to extract 3-strip out of a 65mm negative existed and had been used multiple times before (thanks for those in this topic who pointed that out), the process must still have been quite expensive.
So, why go through the hassle of creating a 3-strip version of 2001, if this didn't increase the number of Cinerama engagements?
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