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Author Topic: Why is the general public so enamored with BOSE? Michael Barry Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 584 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: Nov 1999 posted 01-28-2008 08:09 PM                     Dave Macaulay: Fantastic post!!! So on the money and vastly entertaining. I had so much fun reading the machinadynamica website. Seriously, wtf?!?!? I have never understood the 'custom' AC power cord market. Electricity is electricity, and the cord either supplies your equipment with power or it doesn't. Am I missing something? I have to go make a phone call now. Machinadynamica is going to upgrade my entire video and sound system via a long distance phone call.  |  IP: Logged Damien Taylor Master Film Handler Posts: 493 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2007 posted 01-29-2008 02:30 AM                     Machina Dynamica is satirical genius. I can't believe how carried away some of these 'audiophile types' really get. But then again nothing bothers me more than people destroying perfectly good records on those Chinese things from target. (Which I recently learned, you (U.S) guys apparently call Super Target, which is infinitely awesome.)  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 01-29-2008 03:52 AM                        Our Targets have super powers.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-29-2008 02:18 PM                        I tried to go to Target, but I missed. -- Mitch Hedberg  |  IP: Logged Hillary Charles Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 748 From: York, PA, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 01-29-2008 03:59 PM                     Some years ago, when audiophiles were adding CD players to their equipment, I borrowed some magazines that had ads for these kinds of gizmos. I remember one guy was selling a set of 4 or 5 mahogany discs to place on top of the CD player in order to improve the tonality of the music. I can't remember how much he was asking for the discs, but it was at least 3 digits.  |  IP: Logged Robert W. Jones Film Handler Posts: 74 From: San Antonio, TX Registered: Mar 2007 posted 01-30-2008 11:54 AM                     quote: Hillary Charles Some years ago, when audiophiles were adding CD players to their equipment, I borrowed some magazines that had ads for these kinds of gizmos. I remember one guy was selling a set of 4 or 5 mahogany discs to place on top of the CD player in order to improve the tonality of the music. I can't remember how much he was asking for the discs, but it was at least 3 digits. How about Monster audio/video products. The most expensive speaker wire I've seen. A wire is a wire, and gold plated leads are only good for corrosion resistance. I wonder if there is a market for "non-capacitive/low induction" AC power cords? Or, non electron limiting cables (with magnetic chokes).  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 01-31-2008 10:38 AM                        I used to bring amplifiers to a local music store for repair as they did a decent job at a reasonable price. One day I noticed that they were heavily marketing the "MONSTER" cables so I asked the clerk what makes them so much better? HE told me that "If you use these cables it will improve the frequency response on your system". Well, I told him that I had a calibrated mic, and RTA, and a CD with pink noise on it, I suggested we set up a cd player, amp, and speaker and measure the frequency response on the RTA first with regular cables then switch to the monster cables so that I can see the difference. He unfortunately declined.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 01-31-2008 02:37 PM                        I know it's easy to beat on Monster, as they make themselves an easy target with their overly high-priced products at the top of their lines, over-ambitious sales clerks promising everything from oxygen-free signals to the fountain of youth. However, the lower end of the Monster line is filled with decent product at decent prices. It's up to the customer to determine where the quality tops off and the hype begins, but I've had very good luck buying reasonably-priced cables that have good connectors, which are probably the single most important part of a cable (as long as you don't screw up the electrical properties of the cable itself somehow). Can I fault Monster for also providing a product for those people willing to spend $200 on a 3-meter cable? Not really. A fool and his money are soon parted. I do fault the jokers at the big box retailers that tell people that a $130 6-foot HDMI cable is the only way they're going to be able to see PiP and online features on a Blu-ray disc. Idiots like that should be publicly humiliated, along with whomever told them to say such stupid things.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-31-2008 10:12 PM                        Some of those "audiophile" products are pretty funny. I think that the best one is the giant wooden volume knob (just a knob) that someone posted a link to a while ago but which I can't find now. Other good ones include the aforementioned fancy power cords (as if the last three feet of wire is going to make a difference in sound quality), a device to demagnetize CDs (WTF?), high-end cables for carrying digital signals, and the green pens that are suppose to make CDs sound better. I don't get why people buy this crap when they could just take the same money and get real benefits from acoustical treatment for the room and by upgrading to better speakers. As for cables, I've been making my own for a while now. I use Belden shielded cable and Switchcraft RCA and XLR connectors. I have a difficult time believing that Monster sells anything that will sound noticeably better, regardless of price. I still use #16 stranded lamp wire for speakers and it works fine for short runs.  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 02-01-2008 10:05 AM                        Another thing I find amusing is people who insist on using gold connectors, I realize that gold is a better conductor but the wire in between the connectors is not gold so I would think that any benefit is lost? I also remember working on an install where the theatre owner insisted that we use this solid wire he had left over for all the sound system wiring, which is a bad thing. Stranded wire is used because all the little strands together have more surface area than one thick wire and electricity likes to travel on the surface of wires (electron propigation). We all expected the systems to sound absolutely terrible (also because of the equipment used and on some of the houses the one speaker mounted below the concrete wall painted white "screen") but in the big houses with stereo and real screens the sound really wasnt that bad at all. Scary and shocking I thought! But I think it goes to show that even though you should always use the right kind of cable at the end of the day it really doesnt make as big a difference as other things. (Please do not flame me about the details of an install I stated above, we had absolutely no choice over these things and really did our best to make this theatre decent. I can attest that my former co-worker was able to get 16-18fl out of an old vertical ORC 16k lamphouse on the painted wall through his superior skill and a lot of time spent alinging the optical bench and optics)  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-01-2008 12:16 PM                     Sean, Sean, Sean...you can't equate some things. As to Gold connectors...depending on the location and the type of connector, it makes a HUGE difference. Not in the sense of "WOW, That sounds so much better" but in oxidation of the connection over time. This is true not only of sound but other types of low-current connections. I've had Dolby Digital readers fail, failsafes fail and you name it due to tin-plated connections that should have been gold. Conversely, I've never had one of my gold connections oxidize like that. So for RCAs, Molex KKs, and such, I insist on gold connections for friction based removable connectors. I have not had the same problem with XLR type connectors though so I'm less fussy there. As to solid wire versus stranded...the frequencies for audio are so low that the skin effect of solid/stranded doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You are more apt to make a good connection with stranded, you can crimp stranded, it doesn't take a set like solid...on so forth. As for frequency transmission...solid almost always wins out though. Look at any high-frequency coax cable...guess what you will find as the center conductor...solid wire every time. There is one Sound designer in this industry that swears by using solid wire...in particular Romex and bi-wiring the system. If you really want to scratch your head...look at the GOLD power connectors people can buy! They have gold plugs and outlets. Wattgate 381 Audio Grade Duplex Socket They have mating plugs too! Now this is on the absurdity of it all. How about the wire to the breaker panel...or the breaker panel, or the transformer that feeds the breaker panel....etc. At the voltages/current in this application...I don't think Gold is significantly adding to the power transfer. Steve  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 02-01-2008 02:13 PM                        Steve, I appreciate the interesting information, it is always a good day if you can learn something new. Just so I can make sure I understand you correctly would you say that the added cost of having sound connections gold plated in a typical multiplex not only the amplifier and speaker connections but others such as series/parallell configs on a terminal strip is warranted? There are a lot of places that wont even spend money on the proper size amps and speakers. Doesn't it make sense though that the more surface area of wire you have that the more signal information is going to be transmitted?  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-01-2008 06:19 PM                        Nearly $150 for an outlet? Wow. And you still have to use a crappy Edison connector. Wouldn't it be better to use a NEMA twist-lock connector? At least that would prevent the plug from being accidentally kicked or bumped out of the outlet. It would also have greater contact area.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-01-2008 07:05 PM                     Sean, No...I qualified my statements that the gold contacts made a difference on low-current removable or friction based connections. At the speaker level, you are not likely to realize any benefit though due to the higher currents, the connections should be made well to avoid other hazards. As to the wire for say speakers...you need to look at its impedance/ft figure to determine resistive type losses...not just stranding. Then there are capacitive/inductive losses too associated with multi-conductor systems...the lower the frequency less of a concern you'll have with that. I believe that AWG specifications relate to Ohms/1000' such that you should find little to no difference in same awg between solid versus stranded but to make up for LESS copper in stranded, its OD will be larger in the same AWG so there is enough copper to bring it back to the same Ohms/1000'. The NEC specs would be very strict on solid vs standed otherwise since say a 20A circuit (in wall) can use 12awg wire...there is no requirement for it to be stranded or solid...just 12awg. The specification was based on its ability to carry the current which is a direct function of its impedance, which relates to how much it will heat up (in fact, depending on the fill of the wire way, one would have to derate the wire). In my findings, stranded wire increases the contact area at the various connection points...be they crimps, speaker posts or even solder. When solid wire flexes it has a much greater risk of breakage and at a connection of forming a poor connection. Most electricans that prefer solid wire below 10awg do so for speed mostly. In short runs, it self fishes...it strips near instantly and they feel they can hook up outlets/switches faster by forming a hook in the wire than by keeping all those strands together under the screws (though there are tricks to negate that benefit). So...No on gold for speaker connections Yes on stranded wire for speaker wires No on stranded wire for HF applications (say HDSDI video cables for DCinema...Belden 1694A is the standard and it is 18awg Solid core). And yes on gold for friction based low current connections....particularly if you have high humidity in your area. Steve  |  IP: Logged Robert Minichino Master Film Handler Posts: 350 From: Haskell, NJ, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 02-02-2008 12:07 AM                        Stranded wire is only for flexibility and has little or no bearing on skin effect. Skin effect also only matters when you're transmitting power (i.e. the destination is drawing a significant amount of current to induce a voltage drop in the wire), and not for interconnects with a low output impedance and a high input impedance (like your typical home stereo RCA connections). To combat skin effect for power transmission and not overpay for conductor you aren't using, you would use a large diameter hollow or plated conductor (like copper or silver plated steel or aluminum), multiple separately insulated conductors, or litz wire, which is like stranded wire but the strands are insulated from each other. You can get coaxial cable with stranded center conductors. In fact, RG58 as used for 10Base2 Ethernet was often stranded. Oscilloscope probe cables are also usually stranded so the center conductor is less likely to break from fatigue.  |  IP: Logged

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