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Author Topic: Baraka - Blu-ray Adam Martin I'm not even gonna point out the irony. Posts: 3686 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Nov 2000 posted 11-08-2008 09:28 AM                     quote: Steve Guttag with DCinema...people confuse crispness for detail...in truth the digital repersentation often has far LESS detail. But since the bits are accurately (Sharply) presented, people, at first, see a much sharper picture or in the case of sound, it is very clean. I really like the way you describe this.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-08-2008 11:02 AM                        But Steve, a 70mm mag track that has been played a whole mess of times through a dusty MPU-1 (I think there are more dusty MPU-1s than people) on a soundhead which has not had proper maintenance in years? The source track played for the first time would obviously win, no contest. But at that level of digital resolution, do you really think you could hear the difference between a tape copy and a 96/24 digital copy?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 11-08-2008 01:58 PM                     Sadly Joe has a very valid point here. How many 70mm magnetic prints are TRULY still in existence that have not had any sound deterioration? Sure there are plenty that still sound great, but oxide flakes (if FG is not used) and most idiots didn't keep their systems properly demagnetized either. As a result, I would say none of the 70mm prints in shipping warehouses actually are representative of what the format is capable of. This also goes for picture quality. If you compare a 70mm blowup vs. an original 35mm print vs. a recent reprint (no restoration) on polyester base T-grain filmstock...the 70mm will blow away the original 35mm print, but the reprint on T-grain polyester filmstock will blow the 70mm away in terms of picture quality! That's life.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-08-2008 04:36 PM                     I'd like to see some new movies filmed in 65mm and printed on 70mm T-grain polyester film stock. That would be pretty nice, even if you merely have DTS (or some other synchronized audio) playing alongside the print. Even with 70mm projection largely defunct (unless you count IMAX theaters), Baraka shows an obvious difference can be seen even on Blu-ray when a movie is filmed in 65mm as opposed to the usual 35mm methods and digital video. The rich color, deep contrast and sharp detail has a balance to it that you don't see with smaller film formats. Even if you take a 35mm movie and do a 8K scan and DI with the elements it's still not going to have the same kind of quality seen with 70mm. Chances are slim to none that Hollywood studios will take notice of what Baraka achieved in Blu-ray release and start shooting major features in 70mm again. Still, it would be nice if they did. The benefits of using 70mm don't just play out in 70mm equipped movie theaters.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 11-08-2008 07:32 PM                     Bobby, Baraka on blu-ray looks so good because the original photography was spectacular, and the amount of effort that went into the blu-ray disc was above and beyond. I'm sure you agree with me that it is the lack of compression that makes it look so good. Quality 35mm photography on today's filmstocks scanned in at 8k and carefully mastered to blu-ray would look just as good on blu-ray. That being said I would love to see what a 70mm movie shot on today's filmstocks and projected in 5/70 would look like. The Baraka filmmakers are gearing up to do just this. I've already put in a note that I will gladly convert a theater in Dallas to handle 70mm at my cost if they will allocate a print to the market.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-08-2008 09:35 PM                     Joe, why would you compare a poorly maintained 70mm system (And the MPU could care less that it is dusty) to a new digital soundtrack? That is like saying that digital sound sucks because you can take the media and get unreadable sections to cause dropouts and hangs...that is not really comparing the two media...just showing their respective weaknessess. As to the "SOUND" of the two...what would happen to a 70mm print with successive plays is perhaps some HF roll off as the head wears or perhaps the track. However, the current type heads that came out about 1980 don't put anywhere NEAR the wear on the film the way the old heads did from the 50s-70s . The AFI recently ran a 70mm magnetic print of Lawrence...no problems with the mag track that I'm aware of. The same could not be said about a print of 2001 where there was a "tick" on the last 1/3 of the film on one of the tracks. However, even with the "Tick"...as annoying as it was, does not discount the fact that the analog process captures more of the recorded audio than the digital did. So now you have a tick superimposed on top of the recorded audio. There is no inherent reason why a 70mm magnetic print should quickly decay though. Up until recently (2005)...the Williamsburg Visitor Center was using 70mm mag (now it is 70mm DTS)...they would get at least a year on a print before replacing it just as a procedural thing, not due to some horrible damage. They ran 70mm magnetic for over 40-years and their equipment is nothing more than Century JJs If you were to fire up you dusty MPU-1, with Cat 92Cs in it (also Dusty)...they would most likley sound just as good today. As for the mag heads...if you have a Teccon or like head...odds are, you have not worn it out yet. A Teccon is good for 20 million feet of film...do the math...that is a lot of shows. Most cinemas did not run that many in 70mm...those that did...changed the heads! 70mm film running at 24fps amounts to 22ips tape...which is fast enough to capture a really good recording. The realities are though...most everything in a film today is "created"...which basically means it was made or altered in the digital domain...that would take the edge away from 70mm magnetic because the source didn't have the signal to begin with, not that 70mm wasn't capable. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-08-2008 09:41 PM                     Sorry guys... its not JUST the analog tracks that make those recordings good... alot of what you hear is the old style mic technique that was used before the days of 100 channel mixing boards and the present tactic of placing 60 mics on a symphony orchestra to dial in a certain type of overall sound... those 6 or 7 mics used in the old days to to a "live take" are why many of those soundtracks sound so dam good, ditto for old analog r to r tapes and records. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-08-2008 11:49 PM                     quote: Brad Miller The Baraka filmmakers are gearing up to do just this. I've already put in a note that I will gladly convert a theater in Dallas to handle 70mm at my cost if they will allocate a print to the market. Brad, if you can manage it, I would literally kill to be there to check out a screening of it. True 70mm film-making deserves a huge audience.  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 11-08-2008 11:50 PM                     I installed a pair of Simplex 70mm machines at the producer's house so he can run his personal 70mm print. His screening room has the most awesome look and sound too, nice large screen, CP-200, DA-20 for 35mm. The decor is awesome too...  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-08-2008 11:52 PM                        But Steve, I asked if you could hear a difference between a 96/24 digital copy of a source (doesn't matter what the source is for the comparison, let's say it was the best thing ever recorded) and a tape copy, that tape being 70mm mag, let's say the very first time it is run. Both formats presented on the best maintained systems possible. Could YOU hear the difference? You may like to think you could, but I doubt you could without seeing which one is playing, in a blind test so to speak. It is possible that there would be an audible difference due to playback equipment alone, but would the 70mm mag definitely, absolutely be the better of the two?  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-09-2008 06:13 AM                        unfortunately, according to imdb, samsara will use a digital intermediate. whenever i've seen baraka in 70mm, it's looked fantastic. it was made in the no-fade era. why on earth would a new print be made from a d.i.?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-09-2008 09:09 AM                     Joe, It would be hard for me to say at this point but my guess is "probably". Just like for digital images...my eyes see them as very flat...for sound, digital sounds clean but there are audible cues (harmonics and such) that seem to be missing. I'd say and A-B comparison would make the differences all that more startling. The source material would also be critical since if the source ever went through digital processing (pretty tough not to do today), it is going to affect things. 24/96 is a big improvement over 16/44...then again many people think 16/44 is the greatest thing. I will say, the best film soundtracks I've personally have heard, remain in 70mm...not in any of the digitals, includng DCinema. Of the film digitals, SDDS did sound the best to me on any track I A-B or A-B-Ced. Steve  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-09-2008 12:19 PM                     quote: Carl Martin whenever i've seen baraka in 70mm, it's looked fantastic. it was made in the no-fade era. why on earth would a new print be made from a d.i.? The original 65mm elements had some damage and others issues that were able to be fixed with computer-based retouching tools. I don't like it that so many digital intermediates are so limited in resolution (the overwhelming majority are merely 2K, barely a touch above 1080 HD). The positive side to digital intermediates are they're more precise with adjusting color and other aspects of the image than chemical/optical-based color timing tools. Color timing tools affect the image on a global basis. The color timing is also being applied to a duplicate print, so you have generational loss as well. Hollywood studios simply need to use higher resolution digital intermediates. For 35mm, I think the negatives need to be scanned at 6K and the digital intermediate processed at 4K. That should be the standard, not 2K (or even a 4K scan/2K DI approach). 8K is the current limit for DI work. Perhaps in a couple or so years, when computing technology has matured further, something like a 16K DI may be feasible. With 64-bit imaging applications becoming more common (and able to utilize enormous amounts of RAM) it will be possible to approach a 16K DI without it bringing a high end workstation to its knees.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 12-20-2008 11:43 PM                        Has anyone compared the BD video quality of Baraka to the BD version of the IMAX-sourced bank heist prologue in The Dark Knight? That scene is an extra on the BD Batman Begins and it looks noticeably better than the main movie.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 12-20-2008 11:49 PM                        Baraka wins. Batman: The Black Knight didn't use 8K UltraDigital to scan the IMAX scenes. It only used 2K SemiDigital. That means that Baraka is far more digital than Batman can ever hope to be. The more digital, the better. However Batman did come with a Digital Copy whereas Baraka did not, so logically the Baraka disc must be analog. The opening "prologue" in Batman looks great, though.  |  IP: Logged

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