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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » The Afterlife   » Film quality VS Blu-Ray (Page 3)

 
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   
Author Topic: Film quality VS Blu-Ray
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 07-13-2011 02:05 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps the issue of audio with Twister has more to do with a given theater's sound system than it does the audio track. Although something would have to be pretty wrong for the audio on the Blu-ray to sound inferior to a theatrical Dolby Digital track. The audio on the Blu-ray is Dolby TrueHD 5.1 encoded from a 16-bit 48kHz source at 1994kb/s with a bundled Dolby Digital 5.1 track encoded at 640kb/s. The theatrical track is severely data compressed by comparison, only 320kb/s.

For the lossy DD 5.1 track to sound better the theater's sound system must have been in really great and the home theater system used for Blu-ray playback mediocre or bad by comparison. Different audio masters could be a culprit as well.

quote: Tom Petrov
Actually, it has nothing to do with Warner, almost all early DTS releases were full bit rate on DVD. It's DTS that cut the bit rate.
Tom, you're either back-tracking from your claim about Warner Bros. or you simply forgot what you wrote:

quote: What Tom said earlier
I doubt there was some experiment. There were a number of titles released at the lower 754 DTS kbps rate by Warner. Likely they just took advantage of the new format when DTS came out.
Specifically what titles on DVD did Warner Bros. release with DTS audio tracks besides the 5 full bit rate titles I mentioned? Those five titles were not early DVD releases either. They were released well after the lower 754kb/s bit rate for DTS has been introduced. IIRC the 754kb/s DTS rate was introduced with the Saving Private Ryan DTS DVD.

The earliest bare bones DTS DVD releases were almost all titles released by Universal. No movies from Warner Bros. were within that group. The five I mentioned were the first from WB to support DTS on DVD.

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Tom Petrov
Five Guys Lover

Posts: 1121
From: El Paso, TX
Registered: Jan 2003

- posted 07-13-2011 03:48 PM      Profile for Tom Petrov     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
Perhaps the issue of audio with Twister has more to do with a given theater's sound system than it does the audio track. Although something would have to be pretty wrong for the audio on the Blu-ray to sound inferior to a theatrical Dolby Digital track. The audio on the Blu-ray is Dolby TrueHD 5.1 encoded from a 16-bit 48kHz source at 1994kb/s with a bundled Dolby Digital 5.1 track encoded at 640kb/s. The theatrical track is severely data compressed by comparison, only 320kb/s.
I disagree. I firmly believe that the studios are modifying the soundtracks and picture for home use. This changes the way it was supposed to sound.

I love Blu ray, but sometimes can be real shit.

quote: Bobby Henderson
Specifically what titles on DVD did Warner Bros. release with DTS audio tracks besides the 5 full bit rate titles I mentioned? Those five titles were not early DVD releases either. They were released well after the lower 754kb/s bit rate for DTS has been introduced. IIRC the 754kb/s DTS rate was introduced with the Saving Private Ryan DTS DVD.

The earliest bare bones DTS DVD releases were almost all titles released by Universal. No movies from Warner Bros. were within that group. The five I mentioned were the first from WB to support DTS on DVD.
Bobby, the Lethal Weapons were released with full bit rate in 2000. DTS dvds were coming on the market 98-99.

There are some full bit rate dvds such as Thin Red Line, Twister, Small Soilders, Peacemaker, Mousehount and some others that were full bit rate. Dances with Wolves as well.

As for Warner, the Batman 1-4, Exorcist were released at 754

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 07-13-2011 04:12 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Tom Petrov
I disagree. I firmly believe that the studios are modifying the soundtracks and picture for home use. This changes the way it was supposed to sound.
None of us know all the variables involved that could make Twister sound different. You have to eliminate a number of other possibilities before you can blame the difference on different audio masters being used. In the end, your stance of disagreement is only opinion, nothing definitive.

quote: Tom Petrov
Bobby, the Lethal Weapons were released with full bit rate in 2000. DTS dvds were coming on the market 98-99.
That doesn't make Warner Bros. an early supporter of DTS on DVD. They only jumped in afterward, in very small measure, once the format had already gained some popularity, all thanks to the releases coming from other studios. After that release of 5 titles Warner Bros. went a long time before releasing any other DVDs featuring DTS audio tracks. Warner Bros. has traditionally been a very strong supporter of Dolby.

quote: Tom Petrov
There are some full bit rate dvds such as Thin Red Line, Twister, Small Soilders, Peacemaker, Mousehount and some others that were full bit rate. Dances with Wolves as well.
Twister is the only one in that list that is a Warner Bros. title. The other DTS DVDs are from Dreamworks, 20th Century Fox and Image Entertainment.

quote: Tom Petrov
As for Warner, the Batman 1-4, Exorcist were released at 754
You must be talking about the recent Batman anthology DVD release (also released on Blu-ray but with Dolby TrueHD audio). The original Tim Burton era Batman DVDs were Dolby Digital only. As for The Exorcist, I can't find a DVD release that featured a DTS track. The Blu-ray has DTS-HD Master Audio though.

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Tom Petrov
Five Guys Lover

Posts: 1121
From: El Paso, TX
Registered: Jan 2003

- posted 07-13-2011 04:34 PM      Profile for Tom Petrov     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
None of us know all the variables involved that could make Twister sound different. You have to eliminate a number of other possibilities before you can blame the difference on different audio masters being used. In the end, your stance of disagreement is only opinion, nothing definitive.
Well I say this because I have an extensive list of DD laserdiscs. I have also speculated that DD on LD appears to be the same as the theatrical mixes, expecially Criterion approved discs. Studios at the time were less likely to mess around with things.

DVDs/BD discs often sound like they are enhanced. The Running Man was horrible. So was Star Trek II.

quote: Bobby Henderson
Twister is the only one in that list that is a Warner Bros. title. The other DTS DVDs are from Dreamworks, 20th Century Fox and Image Entertainment.
I mention these because not all early DTS discs were Universal. There were a bunch of other from other studios.

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

- posted 07-14-2011 12:38 PM      Profile for Aaron Garman   Email Aaron Garman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Tom Petrov
Studios at the time were less likely to mess around with things.
While probably true, that's pure speculation and not a definitive fact.

I haven't done an A/B on the AC3 Twister LD and the Blu-ray, but wow, both sound very very good. The DTS DVD was also no slouch, but I felt the AC3 LD was a bit "brighter" from what I remember. The original DD DVD release from 97 sucked.

I did see it theatrically in DTS, and I can't speak with any certainty how it compares, but I do remember the sound mix, in that house, at that time, blowing me the fuck away.

AJG

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

- posted 07-14-2011 02:59 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
Specifically what titles on DVD did Warner Bros. release with DTS audio tracks besides the 5 full bit rate titles I mentioned?
True Romance (released in 2002; catalog #22796) and Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves (released in 2003; catalog #23780).

Both of those are two-disc special editions, and they replaced DVDs issued in 1997 that featured only a 2.0 audio track and minimal special features. I believe it was Morgan Creek, the films' production company, that pushed for them to get re-issued with DTS.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 07-14-2011 03:56 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Tom Petrov
I firmly believe that the studios are modifying the soundtracks and picture for home use.
Well hallelujah, there's finally something I can agree with Tom on.

We were at Dolby's "Surrounded" seminar earlier this week where they had sound designers from various movies and a few other people including Ioan Allen answering questions and making presentations. One of the speakers said that it IS quite common for soundtracks to be modified for home release. He said it's an effort to make a movie sound "good" on a wide variety of sound systems. He said quite often it's the low end, in particular, that gets tinkered with.

I remember "Twister" came with a note in the can saying "This movie is meant to be played LOUD." It was one of the earliest DTS movies we played and I loved the sound mix on it. I thought it was great, especially the opening sequence.

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

- posted 07-14-2011 06:21 PM      Profile for Aaron Garman   Email Aaron Garman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's good information Mike, and not surprising at all. I've always heard that idea thrown around, but no one has ever quoted a person who actually has something to do with mixing films for home use.

I will say with no degree of certainty, but just a hunch, that Disney did not tinker with the track for the Blu-ray of Tron Legacy, unless they made it better. I saw it in 2K DLP and IMAX 15/70 and honestly my Blu-ray sounds just as good if not better than what I saw theatrically. That mix is astonishingly powerful.

AJG

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

- posted 07-14-2011 09:06 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Aaron Garman
That's good information Mike, and not surprising at all. I've always heard that idea thrown around, but no one has ever quoted a person who actually has something to do with mixing films for home use.
Gee, I guess you've never read Widescreen Review, where sound designers and re-recording mixers have been quoted in countless articles.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 07-15-2011 01:28 AM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not everybody reads everything, y'know.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

- posted 07-15-2011 11:01 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Widescreen Review is still around?

I just came across an old issue with Phantom Menace on the cover that was talking about the revolutionary Dolby Digital EX sound. It went on for about 40-50 pages. What I really liked was how they made an effort to show how many different directions the sound could be panned with EX vs other sound formats. Front left to left surround, front left to back surround, etc etc etc. This new EX format gives sound designers so much more creative freedom to pan shit around! A new revolution in sound has arrived!

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

- posted 07-15-2011 12:46 PM      Profile for Michael Coate   Email Michael Coate   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joe Redifer
I just came across an old issue with Phantom Menace on the cover that was talking about the revolutionary Dolby Digital EX sound. It went on for about 40-50 pages.
That sounds more like the length of Bobby Henderson's letters to the editor! [Big Grin]

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Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003

- posted 07-15-2011 01:18 PM      Profile for Aaron Garman   Email Aaron Garman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Gee, I guess you've never read Widescreen Review, where sound designers and re-recording mixers have been quoted in countless articles.
I don't know how to read... [Razz]

AJG

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 07-15-2011 03:05 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
That sounds more like the length of Bobby Henderson's letters to the editor!
Lengthy, yes. But at least the one about "ads that confuse" helped convince Dolby to straighten out its logo situation.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

- posted 07-15-2011 03:33 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When did you write Widescreen Review, Bobby? Did that issue need to be delivered via forklift? [Smile]

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