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Author Topic: "Chicken Little" Going Deep for Digital NYT article
Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 545
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: Jun 2005


 - posted 09-28-2005 09:34 AM      Profile for Matt Fields   Email Matt Fields   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I never said that Chicken Little was crap...just that people will not go to 3D movies if they are lousy. - Matt

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

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From: New Castle, DE, USA
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 - posted 09-29-2005 12:07 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joseph L. Kleiman
They will eventually be taking out the projectors and the servers, but only when technology allows for a dual-stream bandwith on a 4K image. ... So, taking out the equipment would be solely for purposes of replacing it when the technology has advanced.
Who's expecting to pay for that?

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Joseph L. Kleiman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 380
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Apr 2005


 - posted 09-29-2005 10:37 AM      Profile for Joseph L. Kleiman   Email Joseph L. Kleiman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At this time, who knows? We're still talking at least three years off before the equipment changeover, but if 4K can be perfected by 2008, a large number of exhibitors should be switching to 4K anyway for 2D presentations.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

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From: New Castle, DE, USA
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 - posted 09-29-2005 11:59 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Three years is right around the corner. And my guess is you're talking about a $100,000 (at least) investment per auditorium. Someone needs to be thinking about that NOW.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
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 - posted 09-29-2005 12:11 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Meanwhile, plenty of theatres still haven't installed multichannel sound systems. That was a 10-20k investment 20 years ago which actually (arguably) improved the moviegoing experience.

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Joseph L. Kleiman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 380
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Apr 2005


 - posted 09-29-2005 12:22 PM      Profile for Joseph L. Kleiman   Email Joseph L. Kleiman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm flying down to LA this evening for an event on digital 3D cinema. I'll make sure to ask about the financing while there.

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Heath Dutton
Film Handler

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From: Montgomery, Alabama / United States of America
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 - posted 09-29-2005 12:45 PM      Profile for Heath Dutton   Email Heath Dutton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Matt Fields
I never said that Chicken Little was crap...just that people will not go to 3D movies if they are lousy
Unfortunately children don't care so much if the movie sucks. If it has 3D, they wanna see it. Spy-Kids 3D is a good example. If it were just Spy-Kids 3 (or 4 or whatever it was), I doubt it would have done nearly as well at the box-office.

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Joseph L. Kleiman
Master Film Handler

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From: Sacramento, CA
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 - posted 09-29-2005 12:54 PM      Profile for Joseph L. Kleiman   Email Joseph L. Kleiman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Shark Boy sucked and nobody went to see it. Then again, considering what Robert Rodriguez invested in the film, he had a bit of a healthy return.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

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 - posted 09-29-2005 01:47 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Box Office Mojo sez Sharkboy did $39M domestically and another $20M outside the US. Not a blockbuster, but *someone* went to see it (not me!). [Razz]

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Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Ohio, United States
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 - posted 09-29-2005 07:52 PM      Profile for Matt Fields   Email Matt Fields   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Heath Dutton
Unfortunately children don't care so much if the movie sucks. If it has 3D, they wanna see it. Spy-Kids 3D is a good example. If it were just Spy-Kids 3 (or 4 or whatever it was), I doubt it would have done nearly as well at the box-office
That's true for Spy Kids, at that time the first 3D movie in years. But if all or most movies were 3D, which is what the article was about, then 3D would no longer be a "special event" and no longer a strong attraction.

If you live next door to Disneyland and can go there anytime you want, then it ceases to be a big deal.

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Dominic Case
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From: Sydney NSW Australia
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 - posted 09-29-2005 11:42 PM      Profile for Dominic Case   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joseph L. Kleiman
there was no eyestrain evident during the twenty minutes of material I saw.

If I'm sitting ten metres from a screen, then the image is ten metres away. I need to focus at ten metres. If the parallax difference in the images in each eye tells me that part of the image is five metres away or fifty metres, then polarised or unpolarised, red green or speckled, my brain has a problem. What I'm seeing doesn't make sense.

Call it eyestrain, headache or cognitive incongruence, it's a problem. And my experience is that I can cope with the problem for about twenty minutes, then it becomes eyestrain.

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
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 - posted 09-30-2005 05:19 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
For theater owners, it meant smaller savings, but improved quality. A movie could run for weeks - or indefinitely - without the scratches and other defects that become noticeable after as few as 10 screenings of a celluloid print.

I am as pro-new technology as the next guy and would gladly listen to any new ideas on how to make presentation better. But as soon as I hear dog-do like this spewing out of someone's mouth, that's where I stop listening. Print degradation after 10 screenings? What shithole screening room are they watching their stuff in?

Keep your booth, equipment and film clean (apply Film Guard --spareingly) and in good repair and hire people who know how to do the above and that's a much, much cheaper way to keep the film image prestine for hundreds even thousands of runs.

I believe the lengend goes that when MY FAIR LADY was playing in the Rialto in NYC, they had a back-up print in the booth so they could switch if and when there was any visible wear or in case of print damage to the show print. They ran this title in Roadshow for like two years and never had to use the back-up print.

THERE IS NOTHING INEVITABLE ABOUT PRINTS GETTING TRASHED. Prints don't come from the lab with scratches and gobs of dirt (most times). If they are being mutilated and contaminated with dirt in a booth, then when you stick a $150,000 video projector in the same booth with the same imbeciles, they will find a way to trash the new digital equipment -- you can take that to the bank.

As for 3D eyestrain, Dominic, you may be more sensitive than most to that descrepancy between the focal point and the virtual distance that 3D necessarily presents to the eye. I submit that experience shows that it is easily learned and accepted by most people. As Mark J. pointed out, we watched sometimes seven hours of dual strip 3D features a day for a week at the 3D Expo at the Egyptian. It was 3D about as perfect as I have ever seen and I heard that from everyone there. I never felt any eyestrain, even at the end of an exceptionally long day of screenings. There was not a hint of ghosting in that system and no eyestrain complaints from any of people in the audience that I spoke to, many of them cinema professionals. So even if in theory the brain is having a difficult time correlating the "cognitive incongruence," it doesn't cause eyestrain in the majority of people.

When you look at a 2D image, you are doing pretty much the same thing....your brain sees a single focal point but is "tricked" by perspective to accept the incongruity of distance beyond the focal point. The brain learns that no matter where your eyes focus, objects can be at other virtual planes, hence your "cognitive incongruence," but the brain is a fast learner and most people seem to "get it" fairly easily with no problem or eyestrain.

I did ask a doctor at the festival about eyestrain. This is the best I can paraphrase:

Eye strain comes when a 3D system is not aligned properly, as were many in the days of the '50s 3D releases; back then, whatever was in the booth in terms of lenses and projector placement was enlisted to produce two images that were not necessarily a perfect match. Lenses that were perfectly fine for change-over would not necessarily magnify both images to the exact amount; projectors that are mounted to satisfy the phsyical geometry of the booth might not be at perfect angles for perfect screen convergence. On the other hand, when the system is DESIGNED for proper double strip 3D projection as that week-long 3D festival was, the old 3D dual film system worked marvelously.

Eyestrain comes about when the muscles in the eye are asked to do things that they normally don't do, like one eye having to moving up and the other having moving down to converge slightly misaligned framing. That's a physical strain that causes pain, whereas the eyes can focus, i.e., converge, every easily at any point, except perhaps up to say 5 inches from the face. They do that all the time and it is painless. The muscles that focus the lenses of the eyes are not straining if they are focusing at an object (the screen) that they normally have no trouble focusing on. True, they are being asked to perform those natural actions in an unusual configuration, but nothing that they are incapable of doing in real life without strain.

Asking the brain to re-interpert focal points vs the convergance point isn't something physical that will cause discomfort; it's just something the brain has to learn to interpret, just like it does with perspective. Hence, 3D done properly will not cause pain, be it dual strip, or single strip or alternating frame video.

I think the 3D Expo had a very valuable side-effect in that it served as a kind of lab test with a good number of subjects that showed that it is not inevitable that 3D will cause eyestrain, even for extended periods.

[ 09-30-2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]

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Mark Hajducki
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Edinburgh, UK
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 - posted 09-30-2005 06:19 AM      Profile for Mark Hajducki   Email Mark Hajducki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
A movie could run for weeks
I thought the advantage of D-Cinema was that print costs were low so that a crap 'film' could get an even larger first week release than now. (Even if it is gone the next week)

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Joseph L. Kleiman
Master Film Handler

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From: Sacramento, CA
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 - posted 09-30-2005 12:24 PM      Profile for Joseph L. Kleiman   Email Joseph L. Kleiman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Found out last night that Christie has had problems ramping up production for this many projectors. The AIX/Christie deployment was originally scheduled for 200 screens by the end of the year and is now down to 150 (AIX/Christie has until today to sign a major exhibitor or the partnership might disolve). Chicken Little will now be seen on 85 screens instead of the planned 100. Josh Greer of REAL D told me in May they expected 1000 REAL D systems deployed by next Summer. That number is now down to 500. He also said during the Digital Cinema Summit at NAB in April that by that time next year, the first 1000 digital systems will be installed. He's now saying that's 18 months away.

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Paul Linfesty
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
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 - posted 09-30-2005 03:36 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Angel
when MY FAIR LADY was playing in the Rialto in NYC, they had a back-up print in the booth so they could switch if and when there was any visible wear or in case of print damage to the show print. They ran this title in Roadshow for like two years and never had to use the back-up print.

According to the actual NY Times ad that I have a copy of, MFL played its NYC roadshow at the Criterion Theatre.

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