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Author Topic: Doomsday is just around the corner and teaser titles are no longer allowed: free DLP! John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-19-2004 06:34 PM                        quote: Mattias Ohlson No daring movers of the about to advance film presentation any time soon? The technology "to advance film presentation" is already in place. It's just a matter if anyone is willing to pay more for it with higher framerates or a return to 70mm theatrical releases or even simple on-line film cleaners and more skilled projection personnel.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-19-2004 08:42 PM                     quote: Mattias Ohlson Higher frame rate is more likely to happen with digital since there is less lagacy baggage to consider. Digital video has plenty of "baggage" to consider when it comes to upping frame rates. Lots of it. First, you have the issue of CCDs themselves. They're not nearly as fast as film can be. Most higher res digital still cameras have quite a frame rate lag for the time it takes a charged couple device to "see" an image. The highest resolution still cameras, such as "digital back" solutions for large format view camera chassis actually work kind of like a scanner. Other types of electronics in the camera will only harden some of those limitations. Next issue: the video carrying format. You have data input and output limits in recording video. Next you have the problem of having to use existing broadcast standard formats, unless you want to spend a ton of money on some kind of proprietary solution. Recording directly to hard discs has limits as well. Standard formats are going to limit you in terms of image resolution, frame rates and all sorts of other stuff. In terms of playback, you may have more flexibility. But the original material is likely to be film-originated, especially if it is based on higher frame rates like 48fps or even something like Showscan's 60fps. Improving RAID standards are going to allow greater amounts of data input/output. But to get something like 4K imagery in realtime without some serious data compression is going to be tricky. Uncompressed, a 2.39:1 4K image (4096 X 1714) is going to be 20.1 megabytes per frame. You can imagine how the data load is going to balloon when jumping from 24fps to rates like 48fps. The data storage demands alone would be staggering. With film distributors fantasizing about beaming out movies to theaters instead of shipping discs, that's going to further punish efforts of bumping up resolution and frame rates. With film projectors, faster frame rates are possible through somewhat simple modifications to the motors and other mechanics in the machine. Showscan was already a proven format. IMAX HD showed that 48fps was possible from a 15/70 system. 48fps on a 35mm system would be more simple to deploy.  |  IP: Logged Mattias Ohlson Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Falun, Sweden Registered: Mar 2003 posted 12-20-2004 03:34 AM                     Bobby H. I was thinking about 48fps aquisiton with film not video cameras. You could be clever and vary the fps during the movie if you want to save on storage. You would then use 48fps when there is a lot of motion and the motion is the central part of your experience. On storage I noted that IBM think they will be able to deliver 100TB tapes to the market. 4k and 48fps would increase storage with almost 10 times. You could have a film in less than a TB. You read about TB optical discs are being researched. The link to 65/70mm at 48fps is more like it. It would be interesting to see that happen. There would not be one where I live but a few good movies in that format every year is still a good idea. Maxivision on the other hand could be more important it it became the new 35mm standard. I could get Maxivision48 where I live and many movies could be shot that way, at least the bigger ones.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-20-2004 09:02 AM                        quote: Mattias Ohlson On storage I noted that IBM think they will be able to deliver 100TB tapes to the market. Very few archivists would ever rely on digital tape for long term storage. Even for a short-lived bulk distribution media, tape is at a significant disadvantage to disk media or film.  |  IP: Logged Mattias Ohlson Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Falun, Sweden Registered: Mar 2003 posted 12-20-2004 11:48 AM                     Mr Pytlak Have you seen sds-70 or Maxivision48? It is a shame that good things are slow to catch on. 100TB might be useful for short term storage before recording to film for archival. What really would be excellent is 1TB optical discs for shipping digital movie files. Hard drives should work pretty well for distribution as well. Downloading files should be possible to do in real time, 2hr movie -> 2hr downloading. Downloading is naturally a background process. Do you expect any of the two formats you mentioned to make it in this world?  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-20-2004 12:10 PM                        Unfortunately, I have not seen demos of SDS-70mm or MaxiVision 48, as most of them have been in the Los Angeles area, but never when I was on a business trip to Hollywood. I have seen 60fps Showscan on several occasions, and it certainly could deliver superb image quality. I recall that the Disney attraction "Soarin' Over California" is based on 48fps IMAX 70mm format. All these systems are based on technology available for film TODAY. Will superb image quality sell in today's market? It depends on the market. And how it is marketed!  |  IP: Logged Bevan Wright Expert Film Handler Posts: 176 From: Fountain Valley, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 12-20-2004 01:39 PM                        I've seen them both. MaxiVision was shown in a prototype lab with a 6ft wide image, it used an electronic intermittent and could switch from 48fps to 24fps on the fly with a simple cue. Never heard of it being demonstrated in a cinema. I doubt a new film format will emerge... a lot better ideas were never accepted by the marketplace. I've never understood why the audio portion always gets more attention and funding than the image.  |  IP: Logged Lyle Romer Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1400 From: Davie, FL, USA Registered: May 2002 posted 12-20-2004 02:43 PM                     Bevan, How big was the screen for the SDS-70mm demo that you saw? How did that one look (not that it really matters since the studios will never go for the expense of 70mm running 48fps)?  |  IP: Logged Bevan Wright Expert Film Handler Posts: 176 From: Fountain Valley, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 12-20-2004 03:24 PM                        It was on a 50ft screen (IIRC), I have a picture of the set-up somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 12-20-2004 05:49 PM                        Personally I was not that impressed with Showscan's 60fps when I saw it. Perhaps the projector was set up wrong, but I could notice quite a bit of 60Hz flicker in the bright areas. It was like looking at a CRT computer monitor set at 60Hz. After a few minutes you jusy can't stand it. The frame rate didn't seem exceptionaly smooth or anything, and there was quite a bit of jitter in the image as well. I have no idea why I am more easily able to tolerate normal 35mm projection at 48Hz, but I am.  |  IP: Logged Mattias Ohlson Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Falun, Sweden Registered: Mar 2003 posted 12-21-2004 04:30 AM                     Joe The Showscan presentation you saw was most likely much brighter than a normal 35mm presentation. Brightness increases your sensitivity for flicker. With sds70 the flicker rate is 96Hz so you should have no problem even with the off screen reflected 30-40ftL. I am not sure but I guess that Maxivision48 uses a flicker rate higher than 48Hz. Perhaps the only way to sell a new format is to sell at as an event. Sds70 has 24->48 and 48->24fps solutions. The first create intermediate frames using old 24fps movies. The second option is to show movies shot in the new format to play on "plain" 35mm projectors.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-21-2004 07:52 AM                        Joe: Where did you see Showscan? Once it got out into the pizza places and the ridefilm attractions, some of the sites were less than optimum. Unless there was a problem, the perceived flicker was certainly much less than with 24fps using a two blade shutter.  |  IP: Logged Bevan Wright Expert Film Handler Posts: 176 From: Fountain Valley, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 12-21-2004 09:01 AM                         |  IP: Logged Lyle Romer Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1400 From: Davie, FL, USA Registered: May 2002 posted 12-21-2004 10:22 AM                     Bevan, Thanks for the pictures. It is hard to tell from looking at them so I have a question. Is the projector/platter capable of 35/70mm and normal/SDS changeover? Everybody else, Are they still actively marketing this system? I know that with Maxivision, it's been years since it's had any real momentum.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-21-2004 10:49 AM                     Looks alot like a twin intermitent mega projector to me  |  IP: Logged

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